Fair Deal Scheme Calculation, home is Joint Tenancy, not Tenancy in Common

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Bronte

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Trying to figure out the Fair deal Scheme for relatives in a very complicated scenario. A deceased person who lived in a HSE care home for nearly 3 years. Basic details are:

Marital Status: Unmarried Couple, separated after 10 years together and lived apart for last 5+ years.
Living arrangements: one in care home, one living elsewhere, possible another home they owned prior to becoming a couple.
Assets: Home 200K, empty for nearly 3 years
Legal Title: Tenants in common, Joint Tenancy, so on death the living spouse partner inherits everything
Shares: 80K
Cash: 20K
Income: State pension, 240 weekly, bank interest, probably nothing, some dividends.

Questions:
1. The house becomes the living partner's property. Does this count for the FD calculation of the deceased?
2. The LPT is not due because the house was vacant and both owners were not living there, one in a care home and the other elsewhere?
3. Vacant Property Tax not due as LPT exempt?
4. How does one do the actual calculation of the Fair Deal?

Not sure, but living partner may also have been in a care home, they are still living. If that is relevant. Their adult child, probably aged 50+ has moved into the home.

I'm not sure if more details are needed.
 
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I'm finding it hard to follow.
Was the deceased person living in the house before moving to the care home? The Fair Deal contribution they paid would've included a percentage of the value of the house. I'd guess the living partner had to agree or be informed at least if they are a co owner. Did the deceased avail of the Fair Deal loan? If so that has to be repaid - either from sale of the house or from other assets.
 
Bronte said:
Legal Title: Tenants in common, so on death the living spouse inherits everything
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Are you sure this is the case? I would have thought that this will only be the case if the deceased party has willed the surviving party their share.
 
On the Fair Deal application, someone must be named who will take responsibility for ensuring the finances are sorted out after the person dies. Is that you Brontë?
To fully understand the finances you'd need to see the original application form and the subsequent correspondence. The form and financial info needed for the application is long and thorough. It includes proof of property ownership.
 
Bronte said:
Questions:
1. The house becomes the living partner's property. Does this count for the FD calculation of the deceased?
2. The LPT is not due because the house was vacant and both owners were not living there, one in a care home and the other elsewhere?
3. Vacant Property Tax not due as LPT exempt?
4. How does one do the actual calculation of the Fair Deal?
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All the calculations have already been done in the financial assessment done before your relative entered the nursing home under Fair Deal. Your relative and / or the ‘’Accountable Person’’ would have been given these amounts in writing at that time.

You need a letter from a GP to apply for LPT exemption. Your relative is now deceased, don’t know if you can apply retrospectively. Both owners would also need to be in nursing home care to qualify.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/local-property-tax/lpt-exemptions/owner-illness.aspx

Some examples of single and couples calculations can be found here;
https://www2.hse.ie/services/schemes-allowances/fair-deal-scheme/financial-assessment/
 
Apologies for any confusion. I'll answer all replies separately. It is a very messy situation. And thanks for any input.
 
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POC said:
I'm finding it hard to follow.
Was the deceased person living in the house before moving to the care home? The Fair Deal contribution they paid would've included a percentage of the value of the house. I'd guess the living partner had to agree or be informed at least if they are a co owner. Did the deceased avail of the Fair Deal loan? If so that has to be repaid - either from sale of the house or from other assets.
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Yes the deceased D was living alone in the house before ending up in a care home.

The Living partner L was separated from them. They were unmarried. Both D & L were estranged. It's likely L was informed of nothing, but L's daughter has moved into the property or is fixing it up to do so in the last month. Even if L were informed about the care home I'm not seeing the relevance. L and D were very elderly. I'm a child of D. And I've been requested by the family to deal with their estate.
 
Bank Manager said:
Are you sure this is the case? I would have thought that this will only be the case if the deceased party has willed the surviving party their share.
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There is no will that we know of. We don't think it's relevant anyway. Because in a Joint Tenancy it passes outside of the estate of D anyway. To L. I have a copy of the Deed of Transfer into the names of L and D.

The wording is: "as joint tenants in Fee Simple"

(I realise now I made an error in the first post as I said incorrectly Tenant's in Common, I will fix that now)

My understanding is when D went into care, a calculation would be made based on their half share of the home? Or would it be on the full value of the home. But now that the home is actually not owned by D and doesn't go into their estate, does the Fair Deal calculation still get a call on a value of a house that is no longer in play.
 
Bronte said:
My understanding is when D went into care, a calculation would be made based on their half share of the home? Or would it be on the full value of the home. But now that the home is actually not owned by D and doesn't go into their estate, does the Fair Deal calculation still get a call on a value of a house that is no longer in play.
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Did your relative avail of the nursing home loan to defer the amount assessed on the house ? Not everyone does. Some that can afford it choose to pay this amount for the 3 years rather than get the loan.

As far as I know If your relative did avail of the loan, then all owners would have to have given written consent for a charge to be registered against the property. The property then cannot be sold until the HSE get what they are owed, the charge can then be removed.
 
POC said:
On the Fair Deal application, someone must be named who will take responsibility for ensuring the finances are sorted out after the person dies. Is that you Brontë?
To fully understand the finances you'd need to see the original application form and the subsequent correspondence. The form and financial info needed for the application is long and thorough. It includes proof of property ownership.
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This was completed by another family member who is not communicating. But the HSE also corresponded with a third relative. From this I have a letter sent by the HSE/Community care in 2023 looking for +/- 10K outstanding. Then there is a HSE statement with a long list of charges I suppose. Of varying amounts but often quite similar. I believe this 10K was paid off.
 
Des Pondent said:
All the calculations have already been done in the financial assessment done before your relative entered the nursing home under Fair Deal. Your relative and / or the ‘’Accountable Person’’ would have been given these amounts in writing at that time.

You need a letter from a GP to apply for LPT exemption. Your relative is now deceased, don’t know if you can apply retrospectively. Both owners would also need to be in nursing home care to qualify.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/local-property-tax/lpt-exemptions/owner-illness.aspx

Some examples of single and couples calculations can be found here;
https://www2.hse.ie/services/schemes-allowances/fair-deal-scheme/financial-assessment/
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Thanks for that and I had looked at the revenue on lpt and the hse on Fair deal etc.

Oddly the LPT is on a property, but if you die and it doesn't go into your estate does it actually really matter. That would be a problem for the relatives of L as L now owns the house. But I will need revenue clearance etc so maybe that will come into play then. I also need social welfare clearance.

It was more understanding the Fair Deal where I'm getting unstuck with my calculations. I'm just trying to figure out how much will be left, a rough idea. Is there any rule that the home doesn't get counted if it doesn't go into the estate of D.
 
Is it the HSE or the NHSS who corresponded with your relative? We all use the term Fair Deal, but all the administration is done through the NHSS (Nursing Home Support Scheme). They are helpful, but might not be able to deal with you if you weren't named on the original form and aren't an executor.
As Des Pondent said - you need to know if the Loan was availed of or not.
Even if the loan wasn't availed of, the Fair Deal scheme will review the finances after the nursing home resident passes to ensure the correct amount has been charged and paid.
 
Des Pondent said:
Did your relative avail of the nursing home loan to defer the amount assessed on the house ? Not everyone does. Some that can afford it choose to pay this amount for the 3 years rather than get the loan.

As far as I know If your relative did avail of the loan, then all owners would have to have given written consent for a charge to be registered against the property. The property then cannot be sold until the HSE get what they are owed, the charge can then be removed.
Click to expand...

As it happens this is another case I have to sort out. D inherited from sibling S. But didn't know it. S was also in a care home. And left all their estate to D. But S paid for their care and so were not in Fair Deal. Basically I've to do two estates. We are talking very low amounts of money in any case. This time I've refused to do it on my own and have hired a solicitor. That's my condition for taking this on.

In relation to your second paragraph. Is there an actual lien registered by the HSE? And even if it is, this wouldn't affect D, because property now belongs to L. Doubt L signed anything, they are very elderly. Might be living in their own original home or in a care home. So then my assumption is sibling signed HSE forms based on value of house, income (state pension) and maybe the shares. We only know about the shares now because they were found in the house. I have some bank statements and only income is state pension, minor interest payments and some dividends that amount to hardly anything.
 
Bronte said:
We are talking very low amounts of money in any case. This time I've refused to do it on my own and have hired a solicitor.
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Good thinking, hand the whole complicated lot over to a solicitor to deal with, life is too short.
 
POC said:
Is it the HSE or the NHSS who corresponded with your relative? We all use the term Fair Deal, but all the administration is done through the NHSS (Nursing Home Support Scheme). They are helpful, but might not be able to deal with you if you weren't named on the original form and aren't an executor.
As Des Pondent said - you need to know if the Loan was availed of or not.
Even if the loan wasn't availed of, the Fair Deal scheme will review the finances after the nursing home resident passes to ensure the correct amount has been charged and paid.
Click to expand...
The Letter Statement is headed HSE. But listed are amounts under NHSS, So

NHSS Dec 2021
NJSS Nov 2021 The amounts are around 1K, but from Dec 2022 the amount are very low, like 119 or 132.

Cheque is to be made payment to HSE. And forwarded via the Care Home.
 
Have you contacted the local nursing home support office,. we found them very good in the past (our issue was not as complicated as yours though)
www2.hse.ie

Contact a Nursing Homes Support office

Contact your local Nursing Homes Support Office if you have any questions about your Fair Deal application. Find a list of offices across Ireland.
www2.hse.ie www2.hse.ie
 
Bronte said:
The Letter Statement is headed HSE. But listed are amounts under NHSS,
Cheque is to be made payment to HSE. And forwarded via the Care Home.
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Usually you would be invoiced from and pay your assessed amount and any extras directly to a private nursing home.

Under Fair Deal, your relation could also have been in a public nursing home which are run by the HSE, it might explain why invoices were from and paid to the HSE. There is a list here;
 
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