Fair Deal Help

@JPSaltee Thanks, and thanks @twofor1 and @thedaddyman - I have been advised to set the Fair Deal process in motion. Now, I am trying to figure out the best choice of home for her. There have been recommendations from the consultant, so I will be starting there. Such an insidious disease.
 
My mother gave me a gift of 42k four years ago. What happens to this amount? Will I owe them this back through Fair Deal?
 
I would imagine it would be assessed as part of her savings. You won't have to give it back. Incidentally did you declare it at the time? How are they to know about the gift if you don't mention it? My father had very little in the bank when applying for the fair deal. We were asked to provide an up to date bank statement. They didn't request statements previous to that. So supposing he had gifted me 50k 4 years ago they wouldn't have known unless he told them. Whereas if he had sold his house within 5 years there would be a public record of it. Do they just accept what people tell them as gospel or are there cases where they fish for further documentation, I wonder.
 
I never declared it at the time, she said it was a gift from my father's death, although it wasn't from his estate or anything. She just wanted to give me a little inheritance at the time.

I would be terrifed that if they found out I would be in trouble for not declaring it.

Would that be assessed at 7.5% or 80? Is a pension lump sum assessed as 7.5 or 80 per cent?
 
Savings are assessed at 7.5% as is the house (discounting the first €36k of the overall total). I don't know about the lump sum pension though. If you ring the fair deal you can ask without giving any details about your mum - just say you are looking into it. Have a list of questions written out first.
 
In reply to your last email, still not any clearer on what the AMF or AMRF, they will take 80% of the income from it, but as regards the lump sums I don't know whether or not they can take the money if it's wrapped up in investments. I will find out and reply for others to know.

Fair Deal just want all the details.
 
JoplinOne said:
In reply to your last email, still not any clearer on what the AMF or AMRF, they will take 80% of the income from it, but as regards the lump sums I don't know whether or not they can take the money if it's wrapped up in investments. I will find out and reply for others to know.

Fair Deal just want all the details.
Click to expand...
Did you mean ARF
 
Hi. The value of the ARF or AMRF(Retirement Funds) will be assessed at 7.5% per annum and the income drawn down at 80% annually. As the fund is drawn down the value of 7.5% will decline.
 
Hi. They make their assessment and then the family will have to look at how the bill will be paid. Not sure that the family can draw it from the ARF or roll it into the Ancillary nursing home loan.
 
@twofor1 and @Slim

you kindly gave me advice a while back and I wanted to update you on the pension aspect.

So, my mother has a pension of 220k or thereabouts, which is wrapped up as 60k AMRF and 160k in the ARF. We gave full disclosure of all monies transferred and all income etc.

This money is wrapped up in investments that she receives 7k approx a year in two installments of 3.5k, (invested money and subject to fluctuations),

They're also including the 42k she gifted me.

So the calculation is working out as:

Weekly Income:

108 euro (7,000 euro / 80% / 52 weeks)
199 (80% of 249 euro pension)

Total weekly income: 307 euro

Principal residence: 490 euro per week (7.5% for three years)

Cash Assets

Somehow, they have managed to ALSO have calculated the ARF and AMRF Lump sum as a cash asset? I rang to query what this amount was and I was told that even though my mother (or I as her power of attorney) can never cash this in as it's a government approved pension scheme and she gets nothing apart from 7k a year from this amount, that they are still counting it as an asset and assessing it accordingly.

I find this a bit hard to take as, okay, she gets accrued monies every year but can't actually cash the money in a lump sum in.

There is something about being able to take 4% out of the AMRF every year, but my mother hasn't done this as she has been incapable mentally to do this.

She has 60k in savings. So they are counting her 24k (the 60k from savings after the 36k allowance is deducted), the ARF and AMRF at 7.5% of 220,000k and the 42k she gifted me. To come to that figure. / 7.5 / 52.

So now (with this 412 euro) the calculation is 1280 in total. But the loan part won't be going through for two months, but I am assured it will be backdated. I now have to facilitate payment for her care at the full amount of 1180 a week.

My question is: how long do the payments from her go through for and - can they touch the 36k?

I would love to protest this calculation of the ARF and AMRF on her behalf but I know the answer will be that it's a fair deal. If it all has to go to make sure she's in a nice nursing home (which she is now there two weeks) then I am happy for my inheritance to go, however I still don't think that if she can't get money directly from lump sums then it's not fair.
 
JoplinOne said:

My question is: how long do the payments from her go through for and - can they touch the 36k?
Click to expand...

Hi JoplinOne, thanks for the update.

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Your Mam’s assessed contribution will be payable as long as she is in care, even if that means using up the €36K.

Bear in mind though;

The family home will be disregarded from the financial assessment after 3 years.

You can ask to be reassessed annually, this can be very beneficial if savings have reduced.


[QUOTE="JoplinOne, post: 1533383, member: 101342"][USER=24812]

I would love to protest this calculation of the ARF and AMRF on her behalf but I know the answer will be that it's a fair deal. If it all has to go to make sure she's in a nice nursing home (which she is now there two weeks) then I am happy for my inheritance to go, however I still don't think that if she can't get money directly from lump sums then it's not fair.[/QUOTE]

If you are not happy with your Mam’s financial assessment and think it is unfair, then why not appeal the decision to the HSE’s National Appeals Office ? All it will cost you is a stamp.

Although a totally different issue, the link below is an example of how Nursing Home Support Offices who do the financial assessments, can get it wrong and how appealing their decisions can be very beneficial.

[URL]https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/fair-deal-%E2%80%93-financial-reassessment-after-one-of-a-couple-dies.205147/[/URL][/user][/COLOR]
 
Last edited:
Thanks @twofor1 I will get on and appeal it.

When it says here:
Your contribution to care

Having looked at your income and assets, the Financial Assessment will work out your contribution to care. You will contribute:

  • 80% of your income (less deductions below) and
  • 7.5% of the value of any assets per annum (5% if the application was made before 25 July 2013)
However, the first €36,000 of your assets, or €72,000 for a couple, will not be counted at all in the Financial Assessment.

- Can I just go back to them and say that - her savings have now dwindled and this is all she has to pay for her care and exempt that 36k so that I can keep it there for here in case she needs it?

Surely they can't come and take that as well?
 
JoplinOne said:


Somehow, they have managed to ALSO have calculated the ARF and AMRF Lump sum as a cash asset? I rang to query what this amount was and I was told that even though my mother (or I as her power of attorney) can never cash this in as it's a government approved pension scheme and she gets nothing apart from 7k a year from this amount, that they are still counting it as an asset and assessing it accordingly.

I find this a bit hard to take as, okay, she gets accrued monies every year but can't actually cash the money in a lump sum in.

There is something about being able to take 4% out of the AMRF every year, but my mother hasn't done this as she has been incapable mentally to do this.
Click to expand...


Presumably the reason why the fund itself is also assessed is withdrawals can be made from it, as you say 4% annually.

While understandably your Mam is unable to make these withdrawals, but surely you as her power of attorney can make the withdrawals on her behalf.


[QUOTE="JoplinOne, post: 1533601, member: 101342"]
Can I just go back to them and say that - her savings have now dwindled and this is all she has to pay for her care and exempt that 36k so that I can keep it there for here in case she needs it?
[/QUOTE]

No, that’s not the way the scheme works.

You tell the HSE what you have, they tell you what your contribution is. It is then up to you to pay this amount to the nursing home, the HSE pay the balance. I’m not aware of any Fair Deal facility whereby one can have €36K put aside in case it is needed.
 
Slim said:
The value of the ARF or AMRF(Retirement Funds) will be assessed at 7.5% per annum and the income drawn down at 80% annually.
Click to expand...
Is that not treating the same funds as both an asset (while in the ARF/AMRF) and income (when distributed from the ARF/AMRF)? Surely that can't be right.

Presumably the HSE doesn't include the actuarial value of a public sector pension as an asset – it simply treats the payments received as income. No?
 
We had to sell our dad's house as his own bit of savings was dwindling fast and he needed the cash funds to pay the home - such is the nature of the scheme. I often wonder how those on a state pension with a house worth a few hundred thousand manage to have the funds to hand.
 
Protocol said:
The 7k PA pension income would be the 4% distribution from the ARF AMRF.
Click to expand...

I am not familiar with the workings of ARF / AMRF’s.

My understanding from what the O/p said at #32 is her mother currently receives an income from these funds of €7K annually. Apart from the income she can also take 4% out of the AMRF annually, but she has not done this due to her mental health.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top