Equities v Cash (SSIAs)

T

Tammy

Guest
Take the 'hit' now. Switch to deposit based!

By doing this NOW you will still be guaranteed a positive return.

Ignore the obvious at your (financial) peril.

The 'bear' market will continue for a number of years to come.

Yes, "units" will be purchased more cheaply but the liklihood of your 'basket' increasing at a rate necessary to recoup your 'looses' is Nil.
 
"the liklihood of your 'basket' increasing at a rate necessary to recoup your 'looses' is Nil"

Would you like a lesson in elementary probability???

Or spelling/typing (can't figure out which is to blame)?
 
equities

The cost of units in the equity basket is now very low so you can purchase more of them now. Hopefully the markets will sometime swing back and then you will have accumulated lots of units at low low prices and your basket will be overflowing? Remember you are going to have 25% added!
 
Alex, if you can't recognise an (obvious) typo I think I'll look elsewhere for a "lesson" in elementary probability!
However, if you insist in applying probability theory to the issue in question you will arrive at the same basic conclusion.
 
Equities

"Yes, "units" will be purchased more cheaply but the liklihood of your 'basket' increasing at a rate necessary to recoup your 'looses' is Nil."

The likelihood is not nil. It is not possible to say more than that without specifying the term over which the losses are to be recouped.

There is no reason to assume that an SSIA investor intends to uplift his investment at the expiry of the five-year term.

Edited by ClubMan to fix typo identified by US.
 
Tammy/Damacles (I presume you are one and the same person as there is an identical post to Tammy's in the SSIA area but it's from Damacles),


"the likelihood of recouping your losses is nil" (correcting 2 typos)

This means you are saying that it is a physical impossibility to recoup your losses. Absolutely zero probability. No chance, none whatsoever at all. Unless of course 'nil' is a typo and what you meant to type was ',in my humble opinion, low'.

Pop into Excel and work out for yourself what sort of future return would be needed to recoup losses to date (and don't forget that (1) some funds such as Eagle Star's 5*5 are only down 10% since April 2002 according to last Friday's Irish Times and (2) some people are only 9 months into a 5 year scheme). THEN consider whether you think there is a zero (zero!) percent chance of this future return being achieved. Let us know how you get on.
 
Alex, thanks for your prompt retort.

"This means you are saying that it is a physical impossibility to recoup your losses. Absolutely zero probability. No chance, none whatsoever at all."

No it doesn't. The "nil" is qualified by the (albeit mis-spelt) word "likelihood ".

To come back to the central point:
A deposit bases SSIA has a certainity of outcome and notwithstanding your 'Excel' modelling the probability (likelihood) of an equity based product out-performing a deposit based product over the term of an SSIA will (now) tend towards nil.Equally, I would contend that the likelihood of re-couping the opportunity loss over the remaining term of an Investment based SSIA is likely to be NIL.
 
?

Does it make sense to try to apply likelihood functions to essentially chaotic data?
 
Equities v Cash

Take the 'hit' now. Switch to deposit based!

By doing this NOW you will still be guaranteed a positive return.

Ignore the obvious at your (financial) peril.

The 'bear' market will continue for a number of years to come.

Yes, "units" will be purchased more cheaply but the liklihood of your 'basket' increasing at a rate necessary to recoup your 'looses' is Nil.


The logic is flawed.

Even if we accept for a moment that the likelihood of recouping losses is small if we remain in equities, it does not follow that we should now switch to cash.

The only reason for switching to cash would be if we beleived that, from here on, cash will perform better than gilts over our investment timeframe (which Damacles has not bothered to specify).

If we are satisfied that, over that time, cash will perform better than equities, then we should switch to cash but this would be true even if we had earned thumping profits to date on equities.

In other words, the losses we have sustained in equities to date are wholly irrelevant in deciding whether to switch to cash now.
 
Damacles' quotes:

1. "The "nil" is qualified by the (albeit mis-spelt) word "likelihood "."
2. "the probability (likelihood)"

So, you agree that likelihood is another word for probability and I'm sure you'll agree that zero is another word for nil. Therefore, when you say that the 'likelihood is nil', this is just another way of saying 'the probability is zero'.

You should have taken me up on that elementary probability lesson.

However, hopefully US's sensible post will have got through to you.
 
"....investment timeframe (which Damacles has not bothered to specify)."

Thank you US for beginning to address the issue which Alex is too smart grasp.

What we are talking about here is SSIAs. The time-frame is set by the terms of of that product, and that is central to my premise. This is not a philosophical debate on Probability Theory. It concerns the performance of equities over the past 2 years and there likely performance over the next 3 or 4 years.

What happens on expiry of that specific time-frame is not relevant. At that point we are free to make a further judgement on the markets, whether we come from a Deposit Based or Equity Based SSIA.

My central contention is the Likelihood that those coming from a Deposit Based SSIA will have a materially larger 'pot' to re-invest than those who fail to read the signals.
 
The time-frame is set by the terms of of that product, and that is central to my premise.

After five years the SSIA matures and exit tax of 23% of the interest/growth is levied. However there's nothing to stop one continuing to invest the remainder with the erstwhile SSIA provider or elsewhere. In that respect the fixed five year timeframe is arguably irrelevant.
 
Equities v Cash

Actually, Damacles, I’m with Alex on this.

It is not correct, from a grammatical point of view, to say that the word “nil” is qualified by the word “likelihood” . To be pedantic, the correct position is that the word “likelihood” is qualified by the word “nil”. To say that “the likelihood is nil” does not, to an English speaker, mean that there is a small likelihood. It means that there is no likelihood whatsoever; the event concerned cannot happen. The likelhood of a hurricane in Dublin tomorrow may be less than 1%, but it is not nil. The likelihood of the sun rising in the west is nil.

On the time-frame point, there is no particular reason (except, perhaps, an emotional one) to choose the fifth anniversary of commencement as the appropriate date for review of investment performance of the assets held in an SSIA. A review can be undertaken at any time, of course - you are suggesting a review now – but there is no magic about the fifth anniversary unless, for some reason, the investor intends to liquidate his investment at that point.

And my central point remains unanswered. Even if we assume that the probability of equities recovering their losses of (say) the last twelve months over (say) the next four years is low (and I for one am not prepared to assume that) it does not follow that a switch to cash is indicated. The question is simply whether the expected return on equities over the next four years is higher or lower than the expected return on cash over the same period. Introducing the notion of “recovering losses” simply confuses the issue.

Evidently you feel that the return on cash over the next four years will exceed the return on equities and, if so, that is a good reason to switch. (Obviously to persuade others you’ll want to say why you think cash will outpeform equities.) The considerations which you mentioned in your original post were not, however, a good reason to switch.

And finally . . .

Is it really true to say that the prospects of equities yielding a return which will enable the SSIA investor of one year’s standing to recover his losses over the next four years is very low?

Between 4 February 2002 and 3 February 2003, the ISEQ total return index fell from 7490.95 to 6134.14, a fall of 18.1%. That fall obviously did not occur evenly over the year but if, for the sake of simplicity, we assume that it did, then I calculate (or, rather, Excel calculates for me) that an SSIA investor contributing €100 per month would, at the end of the year, have €1,105.

If he continues to contribute €100 per month, and if he is to “recover his losses” (i.e. end up with a pot of at least €6,000) what return does he have to earn over the next four years? Excel tells me that a return of just 0.68% a year will do it. His existing pot of €1,105 will grow to €1,136, and he will pay further contributions of €4,800 which will grow to €4,864 – total €6,000

So, on this model, what you in effect saying is that the likelihood of equities returning 0.68% p.a. or more over the next four years is nil, or close to nil.

Of course, the model is oversimplified. And it makes no allowance for charges. But it does illustrate that, with 80% of the term still to run and the weight of money invested all the time, recover from the stunningly bad performance of the first year can be achieved on returns which,in other circumstances, would look extremely modest.
 
ssia

Myself and the wife have a BOI deposit ssia each. what i was thinking of doing was to switch one of these to an equity based ssia, as the markets have lost so much over the last couple of years. It is my view that they will recover from these lows over the next 4 years, and in effect I would be buying in at a much cheaper rate than those who had invested a year ago in the equity based ssia.Does anyone know if this is possible, are there any pitfalls?
 
Re: Equities v Cash

Does anyone know if this is possible

Yes - it is possible to transfer an SSIA even from one provider to another (e.g. in the case where you wanted to invest in an equity SSIA from a provider other than BoI). However I don't know how easy this is in practice and haven't heard from anybody with first hand experience of transferring.

are there any pitfalls?

Possibly - you if you do transfer, particularly to another SSIA provider, then you will want to be particularly careful that you don't miss any monthly direct debit contributions thereby causing your SSIA to cease prematurely. You should also try to choose an equity SSIA with low charges that suits your investment strategy.

Also - analyses of the market state and future direction other than your own (e.g. that it will continue to fall and that equities will not outperform deposits over the lifetime of the SSIA) are equally valid (or invalid!) as you have seen earlier...
 
US, I am delighted to see that you have gone to quite some trouble in attempting to demolish my contention that the wiser course of action at this juncture is to switch out of equity based SSIAs.

My original posting was intended to provoke argued opinions for, and against , remaining in Equity Based SSIAs. Regrettably, nothing I have seen to date changes my mind that a wiser (and more prudent) course is to crystallise losses now and switch to a Deposit Based SSIA.

I will concede to your “pedantic” interpretation regarding the positioning of the word “likelihood” (although take care that you don’t incur the wrath of our mutual friend Alex when misspelling it!) in my original posting. However, I had rather hoped that by following the thread of my later postings, that a reasoned rebuttal of my viewpoint would be forthcoming. As I said in an earlier posting, it was not and is not my intention to enter into a philosophical debate on the use and abuse of the English language. Nor is my opinion meant to indicate a general preferance for cash as opposed to equities – that is a debate I would welcome at another time. So now let me deal with the ‘meat’ of your argument as it relates to the subject that I had hoped would start a real debate: CASH V EQUITIES (SSIAs)


The subject is about SSIAs. These products have an absolute term of 60 months – nothing more and nothing less. Most of the other salient points surrounding the operation of these a/cs are widely known and are probably not relevant to this debate at this point. On the expiry of the 5 years the SSIA will cease to exist (unless of course a then Minister decides to extend the scheme). Therefore, the “time-frame” is not “emotional” , it is actual. You, and indeed I, may well choose to maintain our investments after the expiry of the 5 years in question and the certainty at that point is that they will not then enjoy SSIA status and therefore are not relevant to this subject.

I have no recollection of saying, nor implying, that the return on cash over the next 3 or 4 years will “exceed” the return on equities. It may do, it may not. What I certainly feel is that the return on a Deposit Based SSIA will exceed that of an Equity Based SSIA over it’s remaining term. Equally I believe, that for cyclical and structural reasons, virtually all cash based SSIAs will outperform their equity equivalents*. This is my strongest reason for recommending a switch to the deposit SSIA – it is, I believe, clearly indicated. All investments are about timing and I believe the time is now.

US, you believe that the introduction of “the notion of recovering losses” confuses the issue. Naturally I disagree. Only the foolish, or those who are easily ‘sold’ invest for reasons other than to maximise return against given risk. I am pleased that you went to the trouble of calculating what you believe to be the accretion required to achieve a break even point, and for that I genuinely thank you. I will not argue your figures with you at this point but again I believe your conclusions are wrong. Let me again bring you back to the subject: EQUITIES V CASH (SSIAs). The important thing here is VERSUS. Maybe you might crunch a few more numbers. For a more valid comparison take the cash value of the notional (existing) equity based SSIA (in your workings I think you are indicating it is €1,105) and assume a conversion to a deposit product for the residual term. Calculate the maturity value. Now tell me the percentage increase on (the former) equity SSIA necessary to match that figure. For speed, don’t even bother with the ‘interest paid by the Deposit Taking Institution, but to discount the “charges” on an equity product is an error in principal. I have not done the sum and I am not a mathematician, but I will confidently state that the result will be far greater than your 0.68%. Now let me come back to recovering ‘losses’. In your workings you have clearly shown a loss to date (again, I won’t argue your figures at this point). I am not sure if, in your example, you are indicating that €1,105 is the net surrender value of the units àfter one year’s contribution (incl. Of Gov. Bonus) amounting to €1,500. &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp If that is the case then I would state the investment to be at a ‘loss’ of €395 or ‘down’ by 26.33%.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp I don’t understand why you bring up the “ ISEQ total return index” and I fail to see how it adds to your argument. For some reason you have chosen SSIA products effected in the past year. I have no immediate quarrel with that other than to note that some Investors and Depositors have been in for nearly 2 years now. You might run your slide rule over that period also (if only to add to your position – or mine!). But let’s stay with your chosen example. I say “switch” and be GUARANTEED a payout of €7,105 plus net interest (est. c.€390) which for rounding I’ll call €7,500 net for a personal investment of €6000.

Yes, the market may boom over the coming 3 or 4 years. There again they might languish or fall further. It is our prerogative to form a view. My view on SSIAs is that the certainty of the return on the Deposit Product wins hands down over the “ifs”, “buts” and “maybes” of a (to date) poorly performing Equity Product*.

Regards.

D O’C

*No doubt there is some exotic hybrid product out there which has bucked all the trends. If so, please let me know.
 
Equities Versus Cash

Hi Damacles,

You're missing an important point in this debate, I think. You said:
I have no recollection of saying, nor implying, that the return on cash over the next 3 or 4 years will “exceed” the return on equities. It may do, it may not. What I certainly feel is that the return on a Deposit Based SSIA will exceed that of an Equity Based SSIA over it’s remaining term.

First of all, these two are obviously linked. If the return on equities does exceed the return on cash over the next 3 to 4 years, then equity-based SSIAs will do better than deposit-based SSIAs over the remaining term, provided the excess return is more than the higher charges on the equity products.

Secondly, whether equities will do better than cash over the remaining term is the only question which is relevant to a debate on whether an investor should switch to cash now, which is your contention. An equity SSIA investor has lost money so far, a deposit SSIA investor has made a small amount of money. But the equity investor's losses to date are the equivalent of a sunk cost - there's nothing he/she can do about them. So the decision on whether to switch to cash now is purely a judgement on whether you think cash will do better than equities over the remaining life of the investment, or perhaps more accurately, whether you think the excess returns possible from equities will justify the extra risk of holding equities.

So "recovering losses" has nothing to do with it. You invited US to crunch some more numbers to calculate the extra return needed from the equity SSIA over the remainder of its term to beat a conversion to the deposit SSIA. Surely you can see, without reference to a calculator, that all that is needed is for the equities to recover the extra charges on the equity accounts - for example, if the deposit account is paying 3% p.a. and the charges on the equity account are 1% p.a., then anything greater than 4% p.a. from equities will give the equity account a higher maturity value.

Obviously, no-one can know whether equities will do better than cash over the remaining 3 to 4 years of your SSIA. But a judgement on that issue is the only one that's relevant for your suggested decision to switch.
 
Cash v Equities

Hi Damacles

“The subject is about SSIAs. These products have an absolute term of 60 months – nothing more and nothing less.”

I disagree. The tax treatment will change after 60 months, but that does not affect the attractiveness or otherwise of the underlying investments. In particular it would be absolutely no reason for the investor to realise his investment after 60 months if his investment objectives actually suggested a term of, say, 120 months was appropriate. Nor is it a reason for reviewing allocation as between asset classes after 60 months – the tax treatment will change in the same way for all asset classes.

I would concede that, if the investor has invested in an SSIA solely and exclusively to obtain the tax advantage and he has no other interest or objective, 60 months is the natural term of his investment. He should, I think, have been in cash from the outset, so the issue of switching to cash now should not arise for him.

“I have no recollection of saying, nor implying, that the return on cash over the next 3 or 4 years will “exceed” the return on equities. It may do, it may not. What I certainly feel is that the return on a Deposit Based SSIA will exceed that of an Equity Based SSIA over it’s remaining term.”

Point taken. I think what you’re saying here – and please correct me if I am wrong – is this. The expected return on a cash SSIA is, basically, the same as the expected return on any cash fund, which is expected wholesale interest rates less a very modest amount in respect of charges. The expected return on an equity SSIA is same as the expected return on any equity fund, which is the expected market return less a somewhat larger amount in respect of charges. Thus your prediction that the cash SSIA will outperform is not a prediction that the expected market returns for equities will exceed the expected market returns for cash, but that the expected market return for equities, reduced by charges, will exceed the expected market return for cash reduced by (lower) charges.

How does this affect the figures I quoted earlier?

Well, if we assume a total expense ratio of 2% p.a. (which I think is generous) then the fall in our equity unit value over the last twelve months was not 18.1%, but 20.1%. In order to recover these losses over the remaining four years, we need to achieve an annual increase in unit prices of 0.75% which, allowing for the expenses, means a market return on equities of 2.75%. Of course, if we can find an equity fund with an expense ratio of less than 2% - and I think we can – this figure improves.

If the obective is not to recover our losses over the next four years, but simply to beat cash, (and I think this should be our objective) we need to make an assumption about the charges in a cash fund. Let’s assume that the charge is 0.25% p.a. In order for investment in an equity SSIA to beat investment in a cash SSIA over the next four years, market returns on equities have to beat market returns on cash by (2% - 0.25%) which is 1.75%. Again, with an equity fund with an expense ratio of less than 2%, this figure improves.

“I am not sure if, in your example, you are indicating that €1,105 is the net surrender value of the units àfter one year’s contribution (incl. Of Gov. Bonus) amounting to €1,500. If that is the case then I would state the investment to be at a ‘loss’ of €395 or ‘down’ by 26.33%.”

No. I am assuming a contribution of €100 per month, or €1,200 per year, inclusive of the government contribution.

“I don’t understand why you bring up the “ ISEQ total return index” and I fail to see how it adds to your argument.”

Because I think it’s the appropriate index. Do you disagree? Why?

“For some reason you have chosen SSIA products effected in the past year.”

Well, I have to pick some period.

What if we assume that the SSIA started 21 months ago, in May 2001, and therefore has 39 months to run? I’ll spare you the workings, but, in that scenario, to recover our losses we need to achieve a rise in unit prices over the remaining 39 months of 2.47% p.a., implying a market return of 4.47% p.a. (or less, if we can find a fund with an expense ratio of less than 2% p.a.)

The main flaw in my model is that it assumes a steady decline in the index over the period to date, whereas this was not, in fact, the case. The only way to correct for this is to do a much, much more detailed model which, quite frankly, I haven’t the patience for. The purpose of the model is simply to show that recovering losses incurred to date does not necessarily require stellar performance over the balance of the period. As it happens, I don’t think this is a terribly important point, which is why I’m not prepared to spend a lot of time refining the model. The object of an investor should not be to recover the losses he has incurred to date, but to maximise his return over the balance of his investment period. This simply requires him to form a view as to expected returns for cash and for equities over his timescale, adjust for charges and make his asset allocation decision accordingly. My model, however refined, will not help him to do that.

“My view on SSIAs is that the certainty of the return on the Deposit Product wins hands down over the “ifs”, “buts” and “maybes” of a (to date) poorly performing Equity Product.”

Fair enough. But you’re expressing a preference here for stability of returns over volatility, which is not the same thing as expressing a preference for higher returns over lower, and which, obviously, not every investor will share.

Edited by ClubMan to fix ezCode formatting.
 
cash v.equities

A few thoughts on this debate:

-what has happenned up to now is irrelevant

-with inflation in Ireland @ c.5% ,deposit returns are actually negative

-the level of dividend on European Equity markets,including Ire/UK, is well ahead of deposit rates

All bets are off if you believe economic conditions going forward are likely to deteriorate significantly( with a resultant fall in earnings and,in time,dividends).

Otherwise,the case for Equities is made by the level of dividend alone.
 
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