Dublin - Law ?? and Order??

[Marathon Man]

Note: Moderator(s), please excuse the abbreviated 'F words', they are necessary to illustrate the points - Not intended to circumvent Forum policy.

It's been quite a while since I've been around Dublin on foot. Last Friday, March 24th, I was in and around Dublin city centre and I'm pretty peeved at my experience.

Around 5.45 my wife & I took the Dart from Blackrock to Tara St.

Almost immediately after the the train left Blackrock a lone guy in his early to mid thirties and casually dressed started shouting "Talk <expletive deleted> English" "<expletive deleted> off back to (country)". On and on it went. Then he stood up and took of his jacket "Somebody is gonna get the <expletive deleted> kicked out dem" "I'm gonna kill someone".

Friday wasn't a good day for me, so rather than doing something about it, we got off at Booterstown and entered the next carriage, where I attempted to contact the driver via the intercom. It wasn't working! I thought about contacting the Gardai, but left it - as I said Friday wasn't a good day.

We got off at Tara St and crossed the river, coming out onto (Lower) Abbey Street. (About 6pm then) There we came across a group of about 50 or 60 people, m&f, in their early twenties. All apparently fairly drunk, "messing about" all across the wide pavement, so that all other passers-by had to give them a wide berth and go well into the roadway/luas lane. I'm not talking about a well behaved crowd outside a pub.

Next, at the Junction with O'Connell St, we came across a gathering distanced around a woman, in her thirties/early forties who was shouting "Garda". We think she was robbed, but didn't stop to ask. However, being the main st of our capital city, I reasoned that we'd come across a Garda by the time we reached the GPO. We didn't see a Garda during 30 minutes on O'Connell St.

At 6pm on a regular Friday evening, not to mention a Bank Holiday w/e, in any large city ANYWHERE, in my experience, I would expect to find at least one policeman. Moreover I would expect them to be proactive when a disturbance of any kind arises. I have NEVER come across a situation where police were not readily visible on the main street in ANY capital city.

Maybe our experience last Friday was unusual, but the law & order situation made my blood boil. I really don't know where to start to try to get REAL action initiated on L&O in this country but, while nobody died or was injured in the above, each incident, but if L&O on this scale can't be tackled, what hope do we have with the more serious incidents.

Remember....this was 6pm on the main street of our capital city!!

 

[ajapale]

I empathize with your position as I understand that this was not a simple case of someone just shouting and swearing. And that the the behavior was extremely menacing.

What can be done about it? I'm afraid I have no answers. Letting off steam here or on the pages of the Irish Mail (or English Telegraph) might make one feel better but its hardly going to change anything.

 

[Glenbhoy]

I'm presuming you mean March 14th?
That aside, I have worked for much of the past ten years in the city centre and haven't come across any problems in that time (well, admittedly I've seen crowds miling around outside pubs, and heard people swear, never spotted an assault/mugging crime though) - there are normally guards around in my experience, especially in and around O'Connell St, but I suppose on occasion they'll be missing too.

 

[Purple]

The Garda have more powers than most police forces. The problem is that most of them are just not very good at their jobs. I base this view on every time I have needed them and from what I hear from friends and read in the paper.

A few years back I called my local station because a bin house at the back of the apartment block I lived in was on fire and the kids who lit it were still there (we were a 3-5 minute walk from Kevin street Garda station). There was a football international on and I could hear them all shouting at the TV in the background when I called. By the time they arrived the fire brigade had put out the fire, been stoned by the kids, hosed the kids in question, and an ambulance had arrived to deal with a fireman who had been hit in the face by a stone. It was perhaps 40 minutes after I, and many other residents, had called them.
The next time I needed them was a few years later when I heard people in my house in the middle of the night. I called my (different) local station and told them what was happening... two and a half hours later they arrived (it's a 5 minute drive). In the mean time I had scared the guys off who had broken in.

My general experience of the Gardai is that they are rude, lazy and utterly unprofessional in how they deal with the general public. I think this is one of the major reasons why public order issues are not addressed.

 

[truthseeker]

My general experience of the Gardai is that they are rude, lazy and utterly unprofessional in how they deal with the general public. I think this is one of the major reasons why public order issues are not addressed.

Last summer I witnessed a mugging in the carpark of the apartments that I live in. The muggers were 3 children (12/13 years old) from a cul-de-sac around the corner. I recognised all 3 of them on sight because they had all been involved in booting footballs at my car on a couple of occasions in the past and the ringleader is quite well known (on sight) in the area.

Immediately I noted what the 3 were wearing and went to the guy who had been mugged and told him to phone the Guards immediately and I would provide a description of what the kids were wearing - and that I recognised them anyway so if the Guards wanted I could identify them.

He phoned and 7 days later the Guards still had not shown up. He called again and was told to come in and make a statement 'if he wanted to'.
Had the Guards shown up on the day the 3 could have been identified and dealt with.

As for the 3 kids involved? Well they have continued to terrorise local people - and why wouldnt they - sure the Guards let them at it.

 

[room305]

My general experience of the Gardai is that they are rude, lazy and utterly unprofessional in how they deal with the general public. I think this is one of the major reasons why public order issues are not addressed.

Personally anytime I've had to deal with the Gardai in relation to anti-social problems I've always been impressed by the speed of their response and their professionalism.

Although several years ago, a friend's wife was punched on O'Connell street just a few yards away from the Garda station. My friend rang emergency services and they put him through to the station where they were informed that the incident had been caught on camera and an ambulance was being dispatched. Yet they never bothered to go outside to check on the situation! No need, they informed my friend when he explained his disbelief that they saw this happen and didn't bother to attend, we have it all on camera. This was midweek around 4pm.

In terms of anti-social behaviour I think community policing is the solution. That and a lower tolerance of this kind of nonsense by all members of society.

Also, I think if the parents of children engaged in persistent anti-social behaviour are on benefits, those benefits should be revoked by the state.

 

[The_Banker]

There has been a lot of stuff written over the last few years about the decline in society from the decline in the Catholic Church to our love of affluence over family values etc...

I too have suffered as a victim of crime and have found the response of the Gardai less than adequate.

I have two friends who are members of the force and both are at uniform level. I have never discussed crime or law and order with them but I have noticed a few things from what they say when they are off duty.

I believe they are disenchanted, unmotivated and completely fed up and bored with their jobs. I think morale in the force is pretty low.

The laws are there to prosecute law breakers, however I don't believe the will is there to impliment there laws. People who act in an anti social manner will continue for as long as they get away with it. If no one stops them then they will continue.

These are just my observations from knowing two Gardai.

 

[room305]

There has been a lot of stuff written over the last few years about the decline in society from the decline in the Catholic Church to our love of affluence over family values etc...

Society hasn't "declined" due to the waning influence of the Catholic Church, more the opposite in fact, it has prospered. I don't buy that increases in anti-social behaviour can be ascribed to lessening church influence but if it later proves true, it was a price worth paying.

I wonder do Eastern Europeans have similar discussions post decline of communism?

 

[Complainer]

I'm not normally a fan of the Daily Mail shock tactics around crime/law/order. However, as a born & bred Dub, I was surprised to find that (for the first time) I was distinctly uneasy on a recent trip through central Dublin one evening. It wasn't any one particular incident, but just a general feeling of tension. When one looks at the series of drug-related serious crime along with large amounts of 'petty' violent crime (including the recent loss of a finger by a 17-year-old English rugby player who was accosted by some locals on O'Connell St on St Patrick's night), I find I just don't want to go out. This of course, means that the criminals have won, as they now have control.

The scenario of intruders in the house as described by Purple above is my nightmare scenario. I posted in this boards.ie thread about some of the practical risks of taking the 'have a go hero' approach.

I've no idea what the solution is. I don't subscribe to the idea that the Garda are mostly lazy or incompetent. I don't think new legislation is particularly relevant, as we really don't enforce current legislation.

I'm worried.

 

[z103]

As for the 3 kids involved? Well they have continued to terrorise local people - and why wouldnt they - sure the Guards let them at it.

I've heard that the guards a pretty powerless when it comes to people under 18 years old. There are local criminals (under 18) where I live that do burglary jobs pretty much unhindered. Everyone seems to know who they are too.

Isn't there borstals, like in Scum?

 

[The_Banker]

Society hasn't "declined" due to the waning influence of the Catholic Church, more the opposite in fact, it has prospered. I don't buy that increases in anti-social behaviour can be ascribed to lessening church influence but if it later proves true, it was a price worth paying.

I wonder do Eastern Europeans have similar discussions post decline of communism?

I may not have made my point correctly. I was trying to get the point across that some people believe that the decline of the churches power has led to the decline in society. I don't believe that.
Anyone who has read through my posting history will know I am no friend of the catholic church. I celebrate there demise every chance I get!!

My point is I believe that people get away with anti social behaviour because the police are not in anyway motivated to stop them. I believe the Gardai (at a uniform level) are completely unmotivated. Why exactly this is, I don't know.
There was a very good letter printed in the Sunday Independent yesterday written by an ex pat Irish person whose mother (an alzheimer patient) had gone missing and her experience when she went to the local Garda station to report her disappearance. Her whole experience summed up the standard of policing in Ireland.

Edit: Just found the letter online (Taken from Letters to the Editor on the Sunday Independent)


Sir -- While watching the St. Patrick's Day Parade here in New York, I commented to my teenagers that I would like to take them to Dublin one year for the festivities. After hearing the events of St. Patrick's Day, (teenagers rioting in Finglas) I'm staying in New York City where it's far safer.

But while the problem teens did initiate the terror, the riots should have been brought to a quick close by the Garda. However, it has been my experience that the Garda in Ireland, I am sorry to say, do not anticipate problems.
Case in point: I was in Dublin two years ago during the last riots. My mother had just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and I was taking her to visit her family before her disease became worse. As "luck" would have it, on the day of the riots, my mother slipped out of my cousin's home in the morning while I was taking a shower. After an exhaustive search of the neighbourhood turned up nothing, I went to the local Garda station for help. I announced my presence and waited, all to no avail. Finally, after almost ten minutes, one Garda remembered that she was there to work.
But she clearly did not seem to know what to do. She took "notes" on a slip of paper about my mother, never entered any information into a computer, never asked for a photo to scan to provide it to other Garda for a search, never asked for my mother's passport, and never called the US consulate.
Apparently this "Keystone Cops" behaviour from your police is accepted by the Irish citizens because when I became upset that the Garda was not doing anything to find my mother my relatives told me to be quiet and not act "like an American"! As if. My mother, an Alzheimer's victim, was wandering around a city that she no longer recognised, and the Orangemen were in town for a protest and already reports were streaming in of the violence.
Fortunately, my cousin's husband works for Dublin Bus -- and he radioed the drivers and gave them a description. Within minutes the bus drivers located my mother on a bus near a suburban mall. Why did we have to do their job for them? What kind of "training" do they get if they can't handle something so basic as a missing Alzheimer's patient?
Catherine M. Wilson
Mt. Pleasant, NY

 

[shnaek]

The scenario of intruders in the house as described by Purple above is my nightmare scenario. I posted in this boards.ie thread about some of the practical risks of taking the 'have a go hero' approach.

Ring the Gardai and tell them you have just shot someone who was breaking into your house. They'll be there in 5 mins and catch the burglers red-handed!

One thing is for certain - if the forces of the state do not preserve law and order like we have contracted and voted them to, then some form of 'community' policing will eventually come into being. I know almost all of us here would prefer if the Gardai, government and courts just did their job and took all criminals and thugs off the streets. But when people are backed into a corner - as will eventually happen - they won't stand by and allow themselves to be terrorised. We don't have to look too far away for examples of this.

 

[Complainer]

One thing is for certain - if the forces of the state do not preserve law and order like we have contracted and voted them to, then some form of 'community' policing will eventually come into being. I know almost all of us here would prefer if the Gardai, government and courts just did their job and took all criminals and thugs off the streets. But when people are backed into a corner - as will eventually happen - they won't stand by and allow themselves to be terrorised. We don't have to look too far away for examples of this.

What would you recommend? The South African approach whereby the remaining rich white people have armed security guards patrolling their gardens? Or the California approach whereby the privatised fire services choose which house fires to put out, depending on your insurance policy?

 

[shnaek]

What would you recommend? The South African approach whereby the remaining rich white people have armed security guards patrolling their gardens? Or the California approach whereby the privatised fire services choose which house fires to put out, depending on your insurance policy?

What I would recommend is that the Gardai do their job.

I would like to see them walking the streets. Their presence is often enough to deter unlawful behaviour.
I would like to see them respond promptly to calls for help.
I would like to see the courts back them up instead of having a revolving door system.
I would like to see the government back them up with solid legislation.

All of these steps would lead to a safer and more content society. Would you not agree?

 

[z103]

What would you recommend? The South African approach whereby the remaining rich white people have armed security guards patrolling their gardens? Or the California approach whereby the privatised fire services choose which house fires to put out, depending on your insurance policy?

If we have an environment where everyone has a fair, equal chance to make money, then both of these systems would be fine.

 

[Pique318]

If we have an environment where everyone has a fair, equal chance to make money, then both of these systems would be fine.

Excuse me ? You are drunk aren't you !

 

[csirl]

I think that Dublin is much safer than it was 20 years ago. Many former no-go areas in the city centre have been redeveloped and are now pleasant and safe. Same goes for some formerly notorious Dublin suburbs that have settled down as more people are working and earning good money - many of these are now nice places to live.

People seem to have forgotten the bad old days of dirty old Dublin in the 80s when much of the city centre was a dangerous ghost town after dark.

 

[TheBlock]

I think that Dublin is much safer than it was 20 years ago. Many former no-go areas in the city centre have been redeveloped and are now pleasant and safe. Same goes for some formerly notorious Dublin suburbs that have settled down as more people are working and earning good money - many of these are now nice places to live.

People seem to have forgotten the bad old days of dirty old Dublin in the 80s when much of the city centre was a dangerous ghost town after dark.

Completeley agree with this....It's actually a lot safer getting around dublin now than it was in the 80's.

 

[z103]

Excuse me ? You are drunk aren't you !

Instead of the personal attacks, why don't you explain what you, presumably, disagree with?

 

[gianni]

When one looks at the series of drug-related serious crime along with large amounts of 'petty' violent crime (including the recent loss of a finger by a 17-year-old English rugby player who was accosted by some locals on O'Connell St on St Patrick's night), I find I just don't want to go out.

It's safe to go out again!

Just avoid areas with spikey fences....