Discussion:Property over a million but low income..!?

cashier said:
I think in fairness to the OP this tax was sprung out of no where within the last couple of years, Irish people have gotton used to not having water, sewage or property charges. In the UK, USA etc Property/Council taxes are part of the course. In the UK there are exemptions for those on low incomes/Benefits, some people pay partial council tax depending on their income.

it is harsh in Ireland that there are no discounts for those on lower incomes.
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How can something that was agreed to 3 years ago as part of the bail-out be regarded as being sprung on people?

You do realise that the whole point of the tax is to broaden the tax base, so that we're not as reliant as we were on the transactional stamp duty?

How can a tax base be broadened whilst exempting people from it?
 
The point that the OP makes is quite valid but equally valid is the fact local services have to be paid for. The major problem is one of fairness, the huge amount of secondary taxation introduced in the last years and about to be introduced is really hurting many people. The fair tax would be a local income tax where everyone paid according to means.
One of the few benefits of Ireland left was that, effectively you could live in your own home with a frugal lifestyle and not have a tax. We / The Govt are now having to introduce this tax out of necessity and not fairness. We are becoming a very brutal and mean minded society reading the posts here. This issue of fairness constantly arises in the UK when Council Tax is levied (including council tenants) and can be many times more than the Irish model. So as the model stands now expect it to get more difficult and more expensive - unless we want to have a revolution and finally take those to account that put us in this place. Guillotine anyone?
 
dereko - you ask "how can the tax base be broadened whilst exempting some people from it ?"

This thread may give the impression that it's only impecunious old widows dwelling in million plus mansions that are affected.

There are in many parts of Dublin, not only southside, with "standard" properties valued at 500-700k. Nothing grand. Yet the owners,whether single old people or struggling couples with three kids will now pay several hundred euros every year.

Their counterparts almost anywhere else will pay maybe 100/200 euros.

This new tax is not broadening the tax base -it is concentrating it mainly on a locational basis.

Sorry, have gone off main thrust of thread which is unfairness on poor old people -though it is indeed unfair for them if they happen to live in much of Dublin
 
peteb said:
People in apartment copmplexs paying management fees have to do it all the time.
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But they knew there would be management fees when they purchased their apartment. Just like when you posted earlier that your car tax is €700 per annum. I wouldn't know what make of car has that sort of car tax.
 
Selling this million-plus house is presented as an option. But is it? Are there buyers out there? And could it be sold before May 1st?
It seems to me we are being forced to pay this new tax, with no options, in preference to paying for food or heating. Is that the kind of society we are going to be comfortable with?
 
No car does. It was just a simplistic example. With the management fees exaxmple, most start off in year 1 at a cheap price of €750 and quickly rise in the first five years when costs rise. The tax just has to be factored in to your day-to-day costs.
 
Gervan said:
Selling this million-plus house is presented as an option. But is it? Are there buyers out there? And could it be sold before May 1st?
It seems to me we are being forced to pay this new tax, with no options, in preference to paying for food or heating. Is that the kind of society we are going to be comfortable with?
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If there are no buyers out there, then the market value isn't a million euro, and the tax should be less. It's up to the person to value their own house. I think there is going to be quite a problem with valuations in this fairly rarefied segment of the market. Who really knows what market values are?

Although I foresee problems elsewhere too. I know a person who lives in an area with a high average value, but the house has not been maintained or upgraded over the years like others have, has the smallest north facing garden on the street, and is mid-terrace. There has been a variation of almost 100 percent in the last two years between the cheapest and most expensive of the very small number of properties sold on the street. This person has no plans to sell and I'd certainly be advising them to come in with a low valuation and challenge Revenue to prove them wrong.
 
peteb said:
No car does. It was just a simplistic example. With the management fees exaxmple, most start off in year 1 at a cheap price of €750 and quickly rise in the first five years when costs rise. The tax just has to be factored in to your day-to-day costs.
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I have no problem with increases in ESB, Gas, Petrol, car tax bills etc. I can fund these out of my savings. I am talking about a new tax here that is going to hit me for €1700 per annum. Next year and the year after and the year after.

It decimates the savings I make by shopping around for my annual car insurance, house insurance, Health Insurance, shopping in Lidl, buying the Dulux rather than the Farrow and Ball paints etc etc I reckon I save about €500 per annum on being careful about my spending. This tax blows these savings out of the water.
 
Odea said:
, buying the Dulux rather than the Farrow and Ball paints .
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I have to ask Odea, what on earth is Farrow and Ball paint and why is it better than Dulux. I thought Dulux was one of the best paints.
 
Odea said:
I have no problem with increases in ESB, Gas, Petrol, car tax bills etc. I can fund these out of my savings. I am talking about a new tax here that is going to hit me for €1700 per annum. Next year and the year after and the year after.

It decimates the savings I make by shopping around for my annual car insurance, house insurance, Health Insurance, shopping in Lidl, buying the Dulux rather than the Farrow and Ball paints etc etc I reckon I save about €500 per annum on being careful about my spending. This tax blows these savings out of the water.
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I shop around for everything, also buy in Lidl. My financial situation isn't the best but I have to pay the tax as well but on a lower scale.

The fact you are even speaking of avoiding Farrow and Ball paints says that you think you should be maintaining a certain standard of maintenance because of the type of property.
 
Bronte said:
If you don't mind me asking and you don't have to reply, why are you living so frugly, almost painfully, when you could downsize and live a financially easier life?
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You are making assumptions again Bronte. It is prudent to make financial savings where one can. I was happy to use a 20% off voucher that djcoors posted in the Homes and Gardens section for Woodies this weekend past. I am happy to take Ciarans advice on the Best Buys section and transfer my savings as needs be. I have benefited from snowyb's helpful advice on health insurance. I get great enjoyment from shopping around and I would be aware of the price of most things. A saving made here and there gives me satisfaction when I splurge on other things that I enjoy doing.
This morning I shopped around online for my Home Insurance that is coming due and I have made a saving of €65. Next stage is to see if my existing insurers will match the savings.
I don't live a painful frugal life to use your wording. I have a pretty good and enjoyable lifestyle. As you seem to be tracking all my posts I am not sure if you are trolling me or cannot understand that people lead different lifestyles and have different opinions to your own.
 
Downsizing isn't possible for everyone. For many it would mean moving far from jobs, family support, schools and perhaps medical facilities. Even then many circumstances might have changed, and they might find it impossible to get a mortgage, and for others they'd lose a tracker. That's assuming they'd find a buyer.

Downsizing is not that simple for the majority of people.
 
peteb said:
The fact you are even speaking of avoiding Farrow and Ball paints says that you think you should be maintaining a certain standard of maintenance because of the type of property.
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But if that was the case then Odea would not be shopping around as he does. Paying his insurance on renewal without checking what the competitors are doing. Shopping for his groceries in M&S. He is saying the opposite.
 
AlbacoreA said:
Downsizing isn't possible for everyone. For many it would mean moving far from jobs, family support, schools and perhaps medical facilities. Even then many circumstances might have changed, and they might find it impossible to get a mortgage, and for others they'd lose a tracker. That's assuming they'd find a buyer.

Downsizing is not that simple for the majority of people.
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There seems to be an opinion here that if you live in a house with high property tax and on a small income that you have done something wrong and should sell. Why are people being punished for making themselves a comfortable life for themselves?
Get rid of your SKY package and pay a new and unfair tax instead?
Cancel your VHI and pay a tax instead?
Switch off your heating and pay a tax instead?
Don't buy Farrow and Ball paint, buy Woodies paint and gives us your savings made.
This tax is unfair. It should be based on the size of the property and one's ability to pay (income).
 
SoylentGreen said:
This tax is unfair. It should be based on the size of the property and one's ability to pay (income).
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We already have taxes on income, plenty of them.

What do you mean it should be based on size? Do you think that size is a fairer basis than value?? (If so I don't suppose that's because you live in one of the major urban areas?!)
 
mandelbrot said:
What do you mean it should be based on size? Do you think that size is a fairer basis than value??
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It should be based on size of property and ones ability to pay.
The cost of blocks and wood and tiles and pipes and foundations etc are the same countrywide. So the folks in Leitrim and Clare and Wexford are paying the same to build a house in their locations as the people in Dublin and Cork. If they can afford to pay for a large house in the country then they should also be willing to pay the same tax on it.
 
Woodie said:
The fair tax would be a local income tax where everyone paid according to means.
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Value of home is part of someone's means. Someone with an income of 25K and a 1M unmortgaged house is better off than someone on an income of 25K and a 200K unmortgaged house.
My mother-in-law is in a similar position - pretty expensive house but very low income so she's going to defer the tax. It will roll up but she doesn't care - it will only affect things when the house is sold, probably after she dies. The only people who 'lose' are those inheriting and they don't care either. There was a man on Joe Duffy last week yakking about how this sort of deferral was unfair to those getting an inheritance which I thought was a bit of a cheek - the means are there to pay the tax, the money just might not surface for a few years - so why should other taxpayers suffer?
 
You could have a condemed property on an acre but a buyer could decide it is the view or some other personal dream makes it worth a million. There is no shortage of people from here and overseas who see such a property as a steal.

Many of these old properties have not had money spent on them and would probably find it difficult to get a BER cert G and the occupant has probably made more sacrifices in his/her life to live there because it is home.
 
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