Cost of replacing 24 yr old Potterton gas boiler

It means adding a chemical protection inhibitor such as Fernox F1 into the system following the Powerflush & boiler replacement. It coats the internals of the complete system to help prevent sludge from being created in the future.
Some don't Powerflush but add the inhibitor but this can cause problems if added to a dirty system.
 
Replacing a 24 year old Potterton boiler?

Thanks a mil! Now I understand what you mean! They will probably all be a bit flummoxed when I ask them about Powerflush and inhibitors! It's probably not the kind of questions they would think a woman would be asking!
 
elainem said:
Would anyone know the cost of replacing a 24 year old Potterton gas boiler with a condensor boiler. Currently the boiler is working perfectly, but the plumber who replaced a part in it last year said it is getting more difficult to locate parts - but I am still reluctant to replace it if it is working well.
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I'd keep it till it dies as I changed mine and it was meant to lower bills, I live in a3 bed semi with attic conversion with electric cooker, stove fire on all day so gas in for 30 mins in morning and 3 mins at night, got a bill of 280 so if I was to put money into anything it would be for a stove with back boiler that heats rads.
 
Hi guys, I'm in a similar situation to the OP.

My gas boiler (with permanent pilot light that has started to go out) is over 20 years old so I'm thinking of replacing it. I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth the money. My current gas bills in winter are €40 per month which should drop a bit once I finish upgrading my attic insulation. In the warmer months I only use a bit of gas for cooking and I manually turn off the boiler pilot light. I have an electric shower so little or no DHW requirements.

I'm a bit sceptical whether a new boiler will 'halve' my bills. I am in a small terraced 2up 2down house (six radiators). It's just myself and the wife here (for the moment!) and if/when kids arrive we will be looking at moving to a bigger house and renting out this one. So our tenants may be the main beneficiaries of a more efficient boiler. I suppose we'll have to replace it at some point though and I'm beginning to think we might as well do it while we still live in the house. What size boiler should I be looking at? I know it's difficult to say without seeing the house but any ideas? I'm thinking I'd like to undersize it a bit if it means better efficiency. I think this may require replacing one of the radiators with a bigger one.

Is there any point in going for heating controls in my case? I don't think we need different areas zoned due to the size of the house. Surely we can just adjust the valves on the radiators in areas not being used? I would like to be able to heat the water without heating the radiators (which I currently cannot do) but if this adds major cost we can work away with our power hungry electric shower. If we were to shower using the DHW I think we'd need a pump to get decent pressure. If I don't go for the heating controls, I presume this rules me out of SEAI grants?

I've read (admittedly from guys who profit from doing it) that a full Powerflush is essential when replacing a boiler. Although my system is old, the radiators are red hot and the only noise they make are normal expansion sounds as far as I can tell. Although maybe I'll get the flush done too if I can get a good price. How much extra would this be, considering the size of the house?

Would be really grateful for any replies. This is a big investment so I don't want to make a mistake. From what I've read I'd like to go for a Veissmann or Worchester if I can afford them. I've just got one quote back so far which recommended a 15 kw glowworm hx boiler. Any thoughts on these?
 
lledlledlled said:
My current gas bills in winter are €40 per month which should drop a bit once I finish upgrading my attic insulation. In the warmer months I only use a bit of gas for cooking and I manually turn off the boiler pilot light. I have an electric shower so little or no DHW requirements.
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so if you take out the standing charges your gas usage is about €35 a month.
Even if a new boiler saved you 20% that would be €7 per month, or €84 a year. 30% would save you €125 per year. It would be a long time paying back the cost of a new boiler.

Of course there is an argument that your old boiler might break down and leave you without heating. But from what I hear, some of the newer ones are prone to breakdowns too.

You'd probably be better spending a few 100 extra on attic insulation.

As for power flush - I know nothing about it but from what I read about it it makes sense. If there is gunge in your heating system then it has to reduce efficiency.
 
lledlledlled said:
I'm a bit sceptical whether a new boiler will 'halve' my bills. I am in a small terraced 2up 2down house (six radiators). It's just myself and the wife here (for the moment!) and if/when kids arrive we will be looking at moving to a bigger house and renting out this one. So our tenants may be the main beneficiaries of a more efficient boiler. I suppose we'll have to replace it at some point though and I'm beginning to think we might as well do it while we still live in the house. What size boiler should I be looking at? I know it's difficult to say without seeing the house but any ideas? I'm thinking I'd like to undersize it a bit if it means better efficiency. I think this may require replacing one of the radiators with a bigger one.
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It is very rare that you will save 50% especially with such small usage. The larger the usage and the larger the system, the easier it is to achieve larger percentage savings. Your pilot light is costing you approx €10 per month to have it on.
Boiler size approx 15 - 18kw but this should really be sized correctly depending upon the size of the rooms, floor types, number of external walls, etc.

lledlledlled said:
Is there any point in going for heating controls in my case? I don't think we need different areas zoned due to the size of the house. Surely we can just adjust the valves on the radiators in areas not being used? I would like to be able to heat the water without heating the radiators (which I currently cannot do) but if this adds major cost we can work away with our power hungry electric shower. If we were to shower using the DHW I think we'd need a pump to get decent pressure.
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Heating controls are always of benefit. You must way up the benefit of timing when the upstairs heating comes on, having it temperature controlled & only heating where you want when you want towards the cost of installing zones.

lledlledlled said:
If I don't go for the heating controls, I presume this rules me out of SEAI grants?
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Yup
lledlledlled said:
I've read (admittedly from guys who profit from doing it) that a full Powerflush is essential when replacing a boiler. Although my system is old, the radiators are red hot and the only noise they make are normal expansion sounds as far as I can tell. Although maybe I'll get the flush done too if I can get a good price. How much extra would this be, considering the size of the house?
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It is an absolute must to powerflush a system when installing a HE boiler. It would be akin to fitting a brand new engine in your car but re-using the old oil from the old engine! Nuts.... Sludge will destroy a HE gas boiler heat exchanger. They are so much responsive than a standard efficiency boiler it they have very small passage ways in the exchanger.
Only today, I was called to a one year old HE gas boiler with a destroyed exchanger because the installer did not powerflush. He only drained & refilled but called it a powerflush.
 
Thanks Shane,

I got a guy out yesterday to have a look at the house. He's to send me a quotation today. He recommends installing either Ideal or Baxi brands. He says the Viessman & Worchester are top of the range but as we have such little gas demand it might not be worth paying the extra. He also said rather than full powerflush he'd stick a high power magnet on the system which would get rid of all the little bits of steel, after which he'd pour in chemicals to get rid of more & finally put in an inhibitor.

At present I only really use my boiler in the coldest six months of the year so the pilot light is only lit for this time. Still, it's a waste all the same.

I'm not going to go with zoned heating controls at this time. We have a small house and hardly any need for hot water as we have a dishwasher & electric shower. I'll get TRV's and set room temperatures that way.

I still can't decide if I'd be better off keeping the existing system until it packs it in. Our gas bills are only €45 per month in the coldest months and that includes gas for cooking. We'd be a long time making back a €2000 installation.
 
Change your installer. Sticking a magnet cleanse on a system is a waste of time. He is only suggesting that because he does not have a Powerflushing machine. It is a must for gas boilers.
Regarding the boilers, he had quoted you for the cheapest on the market. For a small bit more, perhaps €100, you could go for a Bosch, Viessmann or an Ariston. My preferred is the Ariston because its parameters can be changed to suit your small system. Extremely adaptable.
Your usage is very small so you would have to decide on whether the boiler is worth replacing or not. If the boiler is running fine & is heating all the rads & water sufficiently, it may not be worth replacing.
 
Shane007 said:
Change your installer. Sticking a magnet cleanse on a system is a waste of time. He is only suggesting that because he does not have a Powerflushing machine. It is a must for gas boilers.
Regarding the boilers, he had quoted you for the cheapest on the market. For a small bit more, perhaps €100, you could go for a Bosch, Viessmann or an Ariston. My preferred is the Ariston because its parameters can be changed to suit your small system. Extremely adaptable.
Your usage is very small so you would have to decide on whether the boiler is worth replacing or not. If the boiler is running fine & is heating all the rads & water sufficiently, it may not be worth replacing.
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I'll certainly get a few more quotes but he seemed fairly professional to me. He said he can and will do a powerflush if we want it but there's a 5% chance of it causing a leak due to the age of the system.
He'll also do the Viessmann which would involve going down the SEAI route (zones, BER, etc) and would work out at €250 extra, above an 18kW Ideal Logic.
Is there anything wrong with the Ideal boiler? He said there's a five year guarantee. I presume it's the same with a Viessmann.
 
Anybody who has Powerflushing equipment would not suggest putting in a magna cleanse as an viable alternative. I have only had a call out on Monday to a destroyed heat exchanger in a 1 year old gas boiler. I cannot stress the importance of it enough.
Regarding Ideals, IMHO they are an ok boiler, fairly low down on my list.
Why do you have to go the SEAI route if you wish to install a Viessmann? That's a new one to me!
 
Shane007 said:
Anybody who has Powerflushing equipment would not suggest putting in a magna cleanse as an viable alternative. I have only had a call out on Monday to a destroyed heat exchanger in a 1 year old gas boiler. I cannot stress the importance of it enough.
Regarding Ideals, IMHO they are an ok boiler, fairly low down on my list.
Why do you have to go the SEAI route if you wish to install a Viessmann? That's a new one to me!
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I don't have to go down the SEAI route but if I don't the difference in the jobs is €700, as extra pipework will be involved if I want to use it properly. If I do go the SEAI route I get a better quality boiler, zoned heating/DHW controls & a BER cert for €250 when you take the grant into account. If installing the Ideal, he will put a lever valve on my HW tank so I won't waste money heating the water every time I put the heating on which is currently the case. I have a very low HW demand because I have a dishwasher & electric shower.

I have a couple of other questions since getting the quote. It'd be great if you could fill in a few more blanks for me:

Does the installer need to have done a Viessmann course in England for me to get a five year warranty or do I get this anyway?

What should the Temperature Out and Temperature In figures be to achieve high efficiency? I think he said it would be 70 and 50 degrees C. Should the return be less than 50?

I read somewhere that in order to ensure that the boiler is often in condesing mode, it might be an idea to slightly indersize it. Is this advisable?

In case you're interested the two boilers he's quoting for are Viessmann Vittodens 19 kW and Ideal Logic 18kW. I've read that the Logic series is better than past Ideal ranges. I'm not sure if the Viessmann is 100W or 200W. What is the difference in performance?

Do you reckon the installer doesn't have a proper Powerflush machine? I'll make sure to check that he does. Is his reasoning for the magna clean option not valid, i.e. the high velocities of the powerflush could cause a leak on an old system? I was just on to my dad there. He got a WB boiler put in two years ago. Presumably it's a higher output as the house is bigger, they love heat, and use DHW for showers. He said the installer never ran anything through the radiator system! Is this something he can/should get done now? How much would it cost? It's a four bedroom house, think there's ten radiators in total.

Thanks again.
 
It just occurred to me that the boiler will need to be wired electrically. Is this something that is normally included in the quote or is it a separate job? I would have presumed paying for supply & installation of a boiler meant that it'd be up and running when he left. I'd better check this with him too.
 
Be interested to know - what impact the whole process has on existing floors, walls, rooms .... i.e do they have to pull up flooring to access pipes? What re-work needs to be done?

I have a Kingfisher free standing potterton, and its no doubt OLD!.. However it is working.. but I have always wondered the impact replacing it will have on my home (especially the new floors/tiles I have downstairs)!!!
 
sulo said:
Be interested to know - what impact the whole process has on existing floors, walls, rooms .... i.e do they have to pull up flooring to access pipes? What re-work needs to be done?

I have a Kingfisher free standing potterton, and its no doubt OLD!.. However it is working.. but I have always wondered the impact replacing it will have on my home (especially the new floors/tiles I have downstairs)!!!
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I'm no expert so I'll leave the fact to the other guys but I did get a quotation for a similar job this week so I'll tell you my situation. I'm looking at replacing my 20+ year old gas boiler.

As the new one has to go on an external wall, the pipes will be going a different route to the old boiler so the old pipes can just stay where they are. The new installation involves running two pipes from my gas meter (which is attached to the outside of the front of the house) to the new boiler which will be in the room directly upstairs. Unfortunately this will mean being able to see two white plastic pipes running up the outside of the house unless I tear apart my kitchen to run them inside.

Another option would be to site the boiler on a wall at the back of the house. This would use existing gas pipe routes. However, the RGI I got the quote from says the existing pipes (I think he said they're an inch and a half) need to be replaced by bigger pipes (I think inch and a quarter), otherwise the boiler wouldn't get enough gas. In my case it wouldn't involve a huge amount of disruption to the house but it would add significant cost to the job so that rules it out for me. Although I hate the thoughts of pipes running up the outside of the house. The RGI said I can paint them the colour of the house. I might look into building some sort of box around them.

I suppose the only way you'll know what the job involves in your house is to get an RGI in to price the job. And then get a few more quotes. Every installer seems to have a different solution as far as I can see.
 
lledlledlled said:
It just occurred to me that the boiler will need to be wired electrically. Is this something that is normally included in the quote or is it a separate job? I would have presumed paying for supply & installation of a boiler meant that it'd be up and running when he left. I'd better check this with him too.
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Most registered gas installers are also certified for electrical minor works. This covers how to properly wire a complete heating system the way it should be done A - Z. How good the installer is will vary like any trade or professional.
A boiler installation would always include wiring & full commissioning with flue gas analysis.
 
sulo said:
Be interested to know - what impact the whole process has on existing floors, walls, rooms .... i.e do they have to pull up flooring to access pipes? What re-work needs to be done?

I have a Kingfisher free standing potterton, and its no doubt OLD!.. However it is working.. but I have always wondered the impact replacing it will have on my home (especially the new floors/tiles I have downstairs)!!!
Click to expand...
A great boiler for its day. Fairly bullet proof and very uncomplicated. Downside is very slow to heat & has a permanent pilot light which on average costs €150 per year to keep lit.
I recently took out one which is now in the training college so that installers can get experience on them.
Regarding disruption, for a boiler swap over, there would be no floors required to be lifted. Zoning works may have but it would be extremely rare for follow up repair works to be done. We lift carpets, floors & re-instate everything on completion & homeowners never realise what we have disrupted.
 
Shane 007, you seem to really be in the know about these things.

Could you give me an indication on what is the typical price difference between a Viessman & Worchester boiler? Assume say 24kV size.

Thanks
 
Both are very good boilers but....
Bosch has a very awkward to service heat exchanger so many service engineers are encouraged to leave til the following year to clean. Then the next comes & it still doesn't get done. Then the guy who does open it has a mare of a time to get the carbon deposits from it & it gets worse every year. I don't like their standard telescopic flue either as the joint ends up within the wall cavity which can never be inspected for leakage.

Viessmann, an excellent boiler but just too expensive for what it is. It has not re-invented the wheel for why €250 more expensive than it's nearest same quality boiler.

So for me, there are equally as good quality boilers on the market that are cheaper & have all the bells & whistles but don't cost as much, as easier to service & have even more advanced internal controls.
 
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