Corrib Gas Gardai story

[Ancutza]

Now I listened to the recording what I hear are a bunch of clowns making off-colour jokes in the course of their work. Most organisations have their clowns. There is nothing sinister in their behaviour and I don't think that you could draw inference that, were they confronted with a genuine victim of rape, that they would trivialise the crime.

So they need a bit of a slap up the side of the head from a superior and told to cop-on (no pun intended).

Amongst their organisation I'd be much more concerned by the motorbike chappie who pulled me over on Stephens Green and accused me of cutting him up, which I plainly hadn't done, and then threatened me with god knows what or the childhood friend of mine who obviously had mental health issues and now is a fairly senior guard in the south-east.

Balance that against the 'more-than-fair' treatment I've received at their hands when I really was being naughty like your man on the bike who caught me outside Clones. He could VERY rightly have cost me my job at the time (that day I was the organisations clown rep) but chose to give me a BIG fine and an ear-bashing instead.

Let them be shouted at by the Super and that's it.

 

[MrMan]

They are not just guys in uniforms though are they,they are not the local milkman, they have power !

They are in uniform for a reason,they wear this uniform while they protect and serve,they are law enforcers,they should set examples.While they wear the uniform they become all of these things.

There are cultures in every organisation,these cultures can be accepted or not..
This was not on private time,it was while they were on duty and in uniform and with a Sargent present,and being paid to do their job.

Ive no interest in shell to sea.

If for example you worked in a pizza factory and you said you would rape your female co worker,and it was heard on tape,how do you think that would be dealt with?

Or if it was your daughter/mother/wife/sister that they were referring too,how would you like it dealt with..I would hope that most decent people would see that it is not acceptable.
I just know how I feel and as a woman I find it extremely disappointing that such inappropriate use of language ,and saying what they said is very dis hearting.

And if this is what goes on,and it just happened to be caught on tape,the issue is what else is going on?

They wear a uniform, but they aren't robots, actual men still exist within the cloth. You example about saying that you would rape a co-worker shows exactly how far out of context this whole thing has been taken.

Your list of potential female victims would almost make one think that rape is only a crime against women. As a man I know a joke when I hear one and I have the ability to differentiate between said joke and the possibility that there is a mindset present that is prevalent to underestimating the seriousness of violent sexual assault.

 

[Leper]

I've heard more bantering abuse about the male referee from a losing camogie team than what the Gardai are accused of here.

Anybody taking offence to what was said should loosen up, cop on and get a life.

 

[Sunny]

Again this misses the point. It should not have been said in public, it should not have been said in private, it should not have been said by members of the force who have a responsibility for rape victims or by a crowd of lads in the pub on a Saturday night. Joking about rape trivialises the issue and creates a culture in which sexual violence is a topic of fun instead of the serious issue it is.

Any man in any conversation worth his salt should have said "shut up that's not on". Again I make the point that if they were joking about raping a child, people would be outraged. It does not matter that they were joking about a shell to sea protester who was in no real danger. It matters that they were joking.

Seriously? You think one stupid throwaway comment gives you an insight into these guys attitudes to sexual crimes? Are you saying that because I am in somehow defending them, that I think sexual assault is one big joke? Like a lot I am sure, I have seen the affects of sexual crimes and I assure you that I dont see them as a trivial matter. If they had a conversation about actually raping the women, I would be the first to call for their heads. However, I don't see the difference between saying 'give me your name or i will rape you' and 'give me your name or I will kill you'. I don't see how you can infer that in either case, they are trivialising rape or murder. They may be crass cretins for thinking they were funny but they don't deserve for people to jump to conclusions about their attitudes to sexual crimes and face calls to be sacked.

 

[horusd]

1. you're right, because a comedian makes the joke in public where as the guards spoke privately in the confines of their car.

Where they allegedly spoke is irrelevant; they were Gardai in uniform with these women in custody. They used the word peronally (I would...) in the context of these specific women who were in their offical control, not some imaginary woman/women.They are displaying an attitude generally to women, to joke about it is to imagine it as true. Fair enough some might say, even if very distasteful/foolish. But "rape" has very special connotations of extreme violence, forced submission and control, and these women were in custody. If a Garda joked that they would love to hang that particular traveller or n***er in their custody would/could we find that acceptable? You are comparing apples & oranges.

2. ? ? ?

The word rape has a very specific context and meaning when used about a person. It hasn't the same meaning as "raping" a sandwich or any other context where it might be used frivolously, and this frivolous, "joking" use is obvious to all. Again, apples and oranges.


3. OK, I don't know who introduced porn into this discussion but it wasn't the guards, and I'll have to take your take on the common theme in porn for granted.

I did to explain a theme. But again these alleged comments are about specific women, not some (porn) fantasy, although they suggest a similar theme. To speak (jokingly or otherwise) about raping a particular real person (man or woman) is to speak about a particularly nasty violent act against an actual individual. Question is, is this acceptable from Gardai with these women in their control?

A possible partial defence to these arguments is free speech. Gardai, like everyone else, are entitled to free speech, however distasteful their comments, their right to it "trumps" other rights. To negate this right would infringe on private freedoms. But weighted against this, is the fact that they were in offical capacity etc.

 

[horusd]

As an addendum, I am not arguing that the Gardai in question should be sacked even if the allegations prove true. I'm arguing that their comments should not be trivialised, and they do suggest (but not prove) a particular nasty attitude to women, related to the power they exercise as Gardai, not as some "Joe Soaps".

 

[ali]

Seriously? You think one stupid throwaway comment gives you an insight into these guys attitudes to sexual crimes? Are you saying that because I am in somehow defending them, that I think sexual assault is one big joke? Like a lot I am sure, I have seen the affects of sexual crimes and I assure you that I dont see them as a trivial matter. If they had a conversation about actually raping the women, I would be the first to call for their heads. However, I don't see the difference between saying 'give me your name or i will rape you' and 'give me your name or I will kill you'. I don't see how you can infer that in either case, they are trivialising rape or murder. They may be crass cretins for thinking they were funny but they don't deserve for people to jump to conclusions about their attitudes to sexual crimes and face calls to be sacked.

Yes I think one stupid throwaway remark gives an insight into these guys attitudes. I think when a remark like this is made and not challenged (especially by a man present) it creates a culture of acceptability around trivialising the issue which can most definately colour individuals men's attitude to the subject. When a man in the situation says "knock it off that's not funny", that makes everyone present think twice.

I don't think that all men including yourself think sexual assault is 'one big joke' but I do think it being an accepted topic of fun does a disservice to all of us, not least the men in question who I have no doubt are probably decent. I repeat that I don't think they should be sacked but I hope it will make others consider better if a similar remark is made.

 

[monagt]

Hold on , "did they said they would get immigration for the Canadian woman"
They must be Racists as well as Rapists!!!

It was banter in a private setting, it was inappropriate and stupid but the level of controversy is way over the top.

Amnesty for example going to send reps on site , they must have money to waste, last time I donate to them. -> Burma, Libya, North Korea, China and now the Gardai.

Quote: "accepted topic of fun does a disservice to all of us, - ali"
Look at any Comedy show - does not make it right but society accepts and recognises the difference between a joke and a crime.

Quote: "I repeat that I don't think they should be sacked- ali"
So what should be done with them then - flogged, ostracised, boycotted,......?

All this about this and the Irish won't even protest when their country, their childrens future, their own futures are destroyed.

 

[Ceist Beag]

I agree that there's far too much being made of this. People are making a huge leap from a crass few comments made in a private conversation to an abuse of power by the Gardai. Those that say that there is a danger of rape being trivialised by comments such as those made really want to cop themselves on and give adults a small bit of credit for being able to distinguish for themselves between a joke in poor taste and a brutal criminal act!

 

[Bronte]

An interesting aspect of this that has been marginalised is how much of the conversation was about how they as policemen could safely get ladies down from tractors without hurting anyone. Not a sign of men who hate women. They made a joke in very poor taste. But we have to think about the rights of free speech too.

At the beginning of the tape we had an example of a cop trying to do his duty and arrest a lady who was resisting arrest. Thought it was very professional.

If we are going to focus in on a throwaway crass remark we should also focus on what else was happening. These guys have to go there for us everyday and put up with this nonsense down in Rossport. At great cost to the state. There must be a lot of pressure in being a policeman in such circumstances where every act and deed they do is taped by the ladies looking for any slip in their actions to bring charges against a policeman.

We also have to ask why did the ladies release the tape. Does it do anything to aid or progress women's rights. Does it make the work of gardai harder. Do I as a women feel safe in being arrested by a male garda, has that changed since yesterday? No it has not. Do I think I will be treated propertly if I bring a complaint? Yes I do. Naturally there are bad cops, but a couple of cops making very blue jokes has nothing to do with that.

 

[horusd]

No one has accused anyone of being a racist or a rapist. No one has accused anyone of actually abusing power. And I'm not calling for their heads.They should get a slap and it be left at that.

The problem is the confluence between Gardai who arrested these particular women, the comments they made, and the power they hold as Gardai. There is at least anecdotal evidence that some Gardai do indeed abuse their powers. Garda power is not trivial, and rape is not trivial. A just, equal society should not permit comments like these to go unpunished. Women are also Gardai. Would these comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? Would she see the funny side of this laddish humour? Should women (and rape victims are generally but not exclusively women) just have to put up and shut up? Claims that it's being overblown or that people can tell the difference between a "joke" and a crime ignore the fact that it trivialises genuine concerns and are attempts to silence criticism. People in official roles should not speak like this unchallenged. I can tell the difference between an edgy joke toldby a comedian and Gardai who has these women in custody, and that is the point.

 

[Ceist Beag]

An interesting aspect of this that has been marginalised is how much of the conversation was about how they as policemen could safely get ladies down from tractors without hurting anyone. Not a sign of men who hate women. They made a joke in very poor taste. But we have to think about the rights of free speech too.

At the beginning of the tape we had an example of a cop trying to do his duty and arrest a lady who was resisting arrest. Thought it was very professional.

If we are going to focus in on a throwaway crass remark we should also focus on what else was happening. These guys have to go there for us everyday and put up with this nonsense down in Rossport. At great cost to the state. There must be a lot of pressure in being a policeman in such circumstances where every act and deed they do is taped by the ladies looking for any slip in their actions to bring charges against a policeman.

+1, exactly the point I was making in comment #30 in this thread.

 

[TarfHead]

This word has, regrettably, become part of the venacular among some people. I've seen it used inappropriately on message boards and, IIRC, a pundit on SKY Sports used it to describe a tackle by a defender on an opponent.

IMHO, this was used in a private coversation and did not constitute a threat to commit a criminal act. The admissibility of a private conversation, recorded without consent, would seem to be weak.

Anyone who tries to link a casual and stupid remark, with an ambivalence towards a criminal act is, IMHO, stretching it too far.

 

[monagt]

Quote: " can tell the difference between an edgy joke toldby a comedian and Gardai who has these women in custody, and that is the point.- horusd"
No, I think you cannot.
You also, have a penchant for stating and restating the obvious.

Quote: "These comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? - horusd"
No, of course not!
These remarks were not made to a woman, in the company of women or for transmission to a woman.

Quote: "There is at least anecdotal evidence that some Gardai do indeed abuse their powers - horusd"

Actually untrue. There is real evidence that some Gardai have abused their powers, for example, McBreary case in Donegal.
Thats why we have Gardai procedures and the Ombudsman who now should be allowed to get on with it.

Trial by media, the "hang them high" mob, the "society of moral indignation" and so called "concerned citizens" is never good.

 

[thedaras]

Would these comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? Would she see the funny side of this laddish humour

My take on this would be, if the tape had been about a female co worker,the people involved would be investigated by HR /gardai ombudsman.Which I presume is happening.

I have no doubt that if it was female co worker,that she would have a union rep onto it and it,that she would not be very happy about it etc.

If this happened in any orgainisation ,it may well be a sackable offence.
Somehow or other many posters seem to think that its fine because it was the Guards having a laugh on private time..it was not,private time,they were on duty,they were in uniform ,they were being paid to do their job.
Some say it was a trivial remark, it wasnt ,it was a conversation..No one said ,lads thats not on,which as another poster said,is what stops this culture..so it would appear this is normal and accepatable behavior.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if a similar tape was found in most other orgainisations that they would be sacked.
They are representing us while they are on duty ,they are not on private time.
Did you hear about the off duty guard who was fined over a grand for behaviour unbecoming and that was on "private time" ,so that argument doesnt hold water.
Another poster said that a guard let him away with something,which he could have lost his job over,well there you go..thats power for you,and there we were thinking there were there to enforce the law!!Now there is a guard who should be sacked!

 

[Betsy Og]

Its totally clear that the conversation, as a whole, was humorous, even if the particular remark was not. As to people who say "Why didnt someone say thats not on?", in the context of the conversation is was a poor joke in a run of banter, it was clear to all that not serious, so you'd look like a total eejit to go, with your serious head "Ooh, thats not on." Everyone else would look at you like you had 10 heads, and tell you that its obviously a joke.

Anyone who hangs out with groups of men in pubs, dressingrooms etc hears loads of non-pc stuff, most of it in jest, that they wouldnt agree it or mightnt say themselves. But are we all meant to be thought police?? (no pun intended), going around telling everyone to cop on??

If someone made a serious comment about intent to rape I'd report them, in the meantime I'll just think it was a bad joke, or if their jokes are regularly in poor taste that they're a bit of an ignoramus. But I'm not their Mammy, they have a right to free speech as long as they're not hurting anyone. So should we take it upon ourselves to re-educate them??, and how successful do you think we'd be???

 

[Sunny]

But are we all meant to be thought police?? (no pun intended), going around telling everyone to cop on??

Two puns in one sentence. Outstanding!

 

[horusd]

Quote: " can tell the difference between an edgy joke toldby a comedian and Gardai who has these women in custody, and that is the point.- horusd"

No, I think you cannot. Your evidence for this is?
You also, have a penchant for stating and restating the obvious.

Quote: "These comments be ok as a joke to a Ban Garda? - horusd"
No, of course not!
These remarks were not made to a woman, in the company of women or for transmission to a woman.
Sometimes the obvious needs restating because it is clearly not obvious to some, or if it is, they choose to ignore it.


Quote: "There is at least anecdotal evidence that some Gardai do indeed abuse their powers - horusd"

Actually untrue. There is real evidence that some Gardai have abused their powers, for example, McBreary case in Donegal.
Thats why we have Gardai procedures and the Ombudsman who now should be allowed to get on with it.


Anecdotal evidence of some garda being pushy, rude or overbearing is fairly commonplace.

Trial by media, the "hang them high" mob, the "society of moral indignation" and so called "concerned citizens" is never good.

you are jumping to conclusions, and not for the first time. You will note in every one of my posts, the proviso's "alleged", "if true" etc. You were the one to say they "must be racists as well as rapists." and in any event my point is a broader point about power, attitudes and equality, not neccessarily connected to this case, but merely highlighted by it's implications.

 

[monagt]

Quote: "Anecdotal evidence of some garda being pushy, rude or overbearing is fairly commonplace."

Shouting does not make you correct.

You obviously have had a bad "experience" with a member of the Gardai.

Everyone agrees it was inappropriate and disciplinary action should be taken.

It should be left at that.

 

[horusd]

Monagt again you rush to incorrect assumptions. I am not shouting, and where you got that idea baffles me. I have had no problem with Gardai, this is another assumption that seems to fit into your rationale, but not to reality. And I agree that the allegations should be investigated and appropriate action taken, if the allegiations are substantiated, and after due process.