Church offerings

He had to go into hiding to avoid assasination.

He appeared on stage with U2. Not exactly Osama Bin Ladin style hiding is it?

Likewise Theo Van Gogh...lived in what is arguably one of the most free thinking countries in europe - The Netherlands.

Are you suggesting that no Christians ever misinterpret the teachings of their religion and kill someone? There are quite a few abortion clinic staff who'd disagree for a start.

Living in a country with free speech has absolutely no bearing on how much free speech you are allowed under certain religions.

That's self evidently ridiculous.

-Rd
 
They're not my links
You presented them...ergo they are your links.
John 5:31 - "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

John 8:14 - "Even if I bear witness of myself, yet my witness is true"
And the answer:
In John 5:31, the context is This post will be deleted if not edited immediately speaking about how He depends upon the Father and how He is seeking the will of the Father. John 5:30-32 says, "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 31"If I alone bear witness of Myself, My testimony is not true. 32"There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true." The word "alone" is not in the Greek but is included in the NASB translation, though not the NIV, the KJV. Contextually, This post will be deleted if not edited immediately is not speaking as one alone, but as one dependent on the Father and that His judgments are true because He does the will of the Father. This post will be deleted if not edited immediately is reflecting on the Old Testament law that didn't allow the testimony of one person to condemn another to death. Two witnesses were needed to establish the fact:

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established," (Deut. 19:15). and Matthew 8:16 says, ". . . in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." See also 2 Cor. 13:1; Heb. 10:28.

In John 8:14, This post will be deleted if not edited immediately says, "IF" (kan, in the Greek) I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true. But He was speaking of being the light of the word, v. 12, and the Pharisees accused Him of bearing witness of Himself. This post will be deleted if not edited immediately was simply telling the truth that if He did, it would be true.
We can do this all day.

By the way - nobody can know This post will be deleted if not edited immediately' actual words for sure since the Gospels were all written (or actually collated from individual tracts into various proto Gospels only four of which were eventually selected as being "true") long after he was gone and no (historically) reliable written record of his teachings exists.
Then we can put your 'contradictions' down to simple misquotation also.

He appeared on stage with U2. Not exactly Osama Bin Ladin style hiding is it?
Its an interesting story and a real lesson about religious freedom. After Khomeini died the new Iranian regime sought to re-open diplomatic channels with the west. They began toning down a lot of Khomeinis extremism. They were asked to lift the Fatwa off Rushdie. They pointed out that in Islam a Fatwa technically ends with the death of the originator (Khomeini died in 1989). However, extremist muslims continue to declare it valid.

Rushdie has decided to walk around openly, after nine years in hiding, but he does so with a police escort. I think he's a brave man and a beacon for free speech. I think your joky dismissal of his plight is really sick.

Are you suggesting that no Christians ever misinterpret the teachings of their religion and kill someone? There are quite a few abortion clinic staff who'd disagree for a start.
Are you suggesting that Van Goghs murder was simply a 'misinterpretation'? A kind of 'unfortunate accident'? Ooops...stabbed you twenty times by mistake Theo.

Incidentally, no abortionist carries out their actions in the name of any religion!

That's self evidently ridiculous.
Yes, a lot of your statements seem to be self evidently ridiculous, just like that one.

What I'd like to understand is how you two get so exercised if anyone points out the failings of any religion but christianity? You seem to get so enraged by a comment which shows Islam in a negative light, yet you feel free to drag christians down into the dirt in public. Are you more against christianity than Islam for some particular reason? What makes you think that its OK for a muslim to take offense at hateful comments, but not OK for a christian to feel offended by yours? Would you like to see a Fatwa on my head...and chop it off yourselves?

The funny thing is that there are now moves afoot to put an end to all this debate because muslims will not tolerate criticism of their religion. The laws now being drafted in the UK to stifle criticism of Islam will - ironically - probably benefit christians most because (unlike muslims) christians do not resort to physical violence or threats when their faith is publicly ridiculed or 'insulted'.
 
You presented them...ergo they are your links.

Actually I presented a link to Google.

Then we can put your 'contradictions' down to simple misquotation also.

I'm just quoting the Bible and a derivative modern English translation of the original Aramaic and ancient Greek texts at that so I certainly wouldn't bank on it being correct, no.
 
Are you suggesting that Van Goghs murder was simply a 'misinterpretation'? A kind of 'unfortunate accident'? Ooops...stabbed you twenty times by mistake Theo.

If someone interpreted Islam as telling them to do this then it was a misinterpretation (probably deliberate). The act of Killing wasn't an accident, but that doesn't mean the reason for it was valid. I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you.

Incidentally, no abortionist carries out their actions in the name of any religion!

You know the motive in every single case?
Fair play to you.

What I'd like to understand is how you two get so exercised if anyone points out the failings of any religion but christianity?

Right now, I'm getting exercised about your misrepresentation of Christianity as some how better than any other religion. If a Muslim comes on and starts making similar claims about his/her religion they'll get the same response.

Are you more against christianity than Islam for some particular reason?

I'm not against one more than the other at all. I'm equally skeptical of both.

What makes you think that its OK for a muslim to take offense at hateful comments but not OK for a christian to feel offended by yours?

I don't understand your question. Not one of my comments has been hateful. I have nothing against peoples right to worship. I do have a problem with people who make false claims, or who claim that one religion is inherently more right than another.

I presume you fail to see the irony of asking that question while repeatedly making anti-islamic comments yourself, on this and other threads.

This thread has now reached the usual place where all religion threads reach. Perhaps closing it might be an idea. Any objections????

-Rd
 
If someone interpreted Islam as telling them to do this then it was a misinterpretation (probably deliberate). The act of Killing wasn't an accident, but that doesn't mean the reason for it was valid. I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you.
When your religious leaders tell you its OK - nay, MANDATORY - to kill someone who offends your religion, that is no minor personal misinterpretation. It is a religious instruction from the leadership to all the faithful under well worn and recognised precepts of Islamic Jihad. There is no mistake...it is policy.
You know the motive in every single case?
Fair play to you.
I think your suggestion that an abortionist just might be acting in the name of any religion is bizarre in the extreme. Perhaps you consider Satanism a valid religion?

Right now, I'm getting exercised about your misrepresentation of Christianity as some how better than any other religion. If a Muslim comes on and starts making similar claims about his/her religion they'll get the same response.
Better than? That's your word. You've tied yourself so much in knots you've forgotten what we were discussing.
Christianity is a religion which allows - indeed requires debate, and accepts freedom of conscience within its boundaries. You wish to paint it as medieval and backward...which it certainly is NOT, and I used the comparison with Islam for the purpose of relativity.
And I seriously doubt you'd be harsh on a muslim who came on here, even if they told you that you are an infidel and a crusader, which you are in the eyes of Islam.
I do have a problem with people who make false claims, or who claim that one religion is inherently more right than another.
This discussion started with a comment about church collections. It was turned into a diatribe against Catholicism and Christianity. I have the right to defend my faith. All religions think themselves 'inherently more right' than all others, but some have rather less tolerance than others to criticism. You are free to criticise christianity or the catholic church - I won't threaten your life in response, but keep it honest and fair please.
If you don't like christians or catholics you are free to ignore them, but don't tell us how to live or what to believe.
 
It was turned into a diatribe against Catholicism and Christianity.

Precisely where and by whom?
 
And I seriously doubt you'd be harsh on a muslim who came on here, even if they told you that you are an infidel and a crusader, which you are in the eyes of Islam.

Sounds like more to me. A lot like the diatribes I've read here over the past year or so.

That brush that you're painting with Tharggy is far too big.
 
If Catholics would stop looking down there noses at non-Catholics with a mix of pity and scorn I might have more time for them. Y'all ain't got so much to be proud of...

what about all the other stuff like "an eye for an eye", hell/purgatory/limbo and so on?

He [This post will be deleted if not edited immediately]also said lots of other stuff some of which was mutually contradictory.

So much for constancy of belief so.

Is 'Christianophobia' a word?
Should be.
 
I think it's fairly easy to differentiate between believing that all Muslims want to kill you etc or feel justified in doing so and the general debate going on in relation to certain facets of Christianity.
 
Whatever about the first comment above, if you think that the three that follow (from me as it happens) constitute a "diatribe" then you must have a pretty low tolerance to the normal cut and thrust of discussion/debate.

If you don't like christians or catholics you are free to ignore them, but don't tell us how to live or what to believe.

Who expressed a dislike for Christians or Catholics or any urge to tell them how to live their lives? Just as the Catholic Church (in the form of Father Kevin Doran writing in Alive at the weekend) is welcome to use free speech to claim that they don't recognise the state institution of marriage as executed during registry office marriages (such as my own) and considers such unions "invalid", I certainly feel free to express my opinion and criticism of them and their beliefs where I consider it justified.
 
And I seriously doubt you'd be harsh on a muslim who came on here, even if they told you that you are an infidel and a crusader, which you are in the eyes of Islam.

You have no idea how I'd respond to such a Post and I'll thank you not to presume you do.

It should take all of 10 seconds in Google to find any number of supposed Christians spouting hatred about any number of groups, from Gays, to Abortion Clinic Staff, to Jews, even other Christians.
I don't believe any of these people are true Christians, and I certainly don't believe it would be fair to judge all Christians by these remarks.

You should have the decency to accept that those Muslim Leaders who promote acts of violence and hatred are also not indicative of the entiry religion. To attempt to extrapolate from the fanatics to the entire population is the worst kind of prejudice and scare mongering.

-Rd
 
Whatever about the first comment above, if you think that the three that follow (from me as it happens) constitute a "diatribe" then you must have a pretty low tolerance to the normal cut and thrust of discussion/debate.
Actually yes, I do have a low tolerance to your comments. I developed it after realising that other religions accept NO debate or discussion on their precepts. They won't tolerate it...why should I?

The 'christians' you refer to are what I would call unreconstructed fundamentalist puritan-protestant fanatics, and they are mostly American too...although we do have our own homegrown variety in the likes of Ian Paisley.

Have you read the [broken link removed] which draw a direct lineage from the Paisley-like Scotts Irish Protestants who settled in the American midwest to the Bible thumping fundamentalists of the region today...the heartland of George Bushs support?

I disown them entirely. Their kind persecuted Catholics in this country for centuries.

PS that link requires registration so I'll reproduce the essay...sorry but you must read it.

America's New Model Army
Anatol Lieven

Fundamentalist Christians are the backbone of the Bush administration. An analyst probes their origins and assesses their influence, which has been boosted by the ‘war on terror’

In the United States today, in this land of ultra-modernity, of continual economic, social and cultural change, a large and powerful section of the population is in revolt against modernity and, indeed, modern versions of rationality. It is unlike anything else in the developed world, and its roots are to be found in the history of Britain – the history which paradoxically created Britain’s culture of political tolerance. Some 350 years ago, Britain experienced a series of great civil wars, waged between rival forces of religious and political absolutism. Fortunately for Britain, Europe and the world, both sides lost. Out of their joint defeat came the latitudinarian and humanist ideology of eighteenth-century England.

The ideologies that were defeated at different points in the seventeenth century experienced very different subsequent fates. The Catholics were repressed for more than a century; but after 1829, having abandoned their political absolutism, they returned and now form a valuable and uncontroversial part of the British population and cultural scene, and are represented across the political spectrum.

Many of the Puritan absolutists, by contrast, emigrated from Britain to the British colonies in America, where they multiplied. Over time, a great many modified their religion under the influence of modern change and development, or abandoned religious belief altogether. Many others, however, retained their original fundamentalist religion in a form which if by no means unchanged, was still – by the standards of Europe and the rest of the developed world – remarkably similar to its original seventeenth-century form.

This was especially true of the Scots and “Scots-Irish” Protestants who populated so much of the American South and south-west. They were deeply shaped by their experience of the Protestant settlement of Ulster, where warfare against the native Irish prefigured their later experience of war with the Indians. In its particular combination of religious fundamentalism and chauvinist nationalism, the world of Ian Paisley and the Democratic Unionist Party is indeed the only part of Europe today which resembles – and is indeed closely related to – the so-called “Bible Belt” of the United States.

This is the world which produced General “Jerry” Boykin, the now notorious American general who – after his appointment as deputy under-secretary of defence for intelligence – was quoted as declaring among other things that the enemy of the United States in the war against terrorism is Satan, and he will only be defeated “if we come against him in the name of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately”. Most famously, General Boykin said, of a Somali warlord, “I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.” This last was widely described as “crude machismo”, which it may have been, but it was also a straight biblical reference to the Book of Isaiah, and to the victorious contests of Hebrew Prophets with the priests of Baal. The God of this tradition is essentially a tribal God, a Cromwellian “God of Warre” who fights for them against Amalekites, Irish Papists, Red Indians, Mexicans, Spaniards, Germans, Japanese, Communists, Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Muslims and any other enemy who appears.

In his ideology, General Boykin is essentially an officer of Cromwell’s New Model Army. He is a remarkable individual to find in a senior position at the start of the twenty-first century, and in a country which is, after all, supposed to represent the very epitome of successful modernity.

It is the traditional doctrine of millenarianism that is mobilising Christian fundamentalists in the United States behind ultra-hardline Israeli positions – because Israel supposedly has to be reconstituted on the whole of its former territory before the Antichrist can appear and begin the End of the World.

The numbers of strongly committed fundamentalists in the United States at the start of the twenty-first century have been variously estimated at somewhere between 7 and 12 per cent of the total American population (white evangelical Christians as a whole are between 20 and 25 per cent). They form a very much higher proportion of Republican Party members and activists, however, and are the backbone of the “Christian Right”. They provide a number of Bush administration officials, of whom the most prominent is the Attorney General, John Ashcroft, and leading Republican members of Congress such as Representative Tom DeLay.

The political apathy of so much of the American population, and in particular the shockingly low figures for voter turnout, gives quite disproportionate power to relatively small but highly committed groups. Thus in the Congressional elections of 2002, the Republican victory was produced by barely 15 per cent of registered voters – of whom fundamentalist Christians constituted a large part.

It is the ultra-modernity of the United States that has brought about the reaction of Protestant fundamentalism, prey to three successive moral panics. The first is horror at some aspect or other of the America of the time, whether Catholicism (in the mid-nineteenth century), prostitution, alcohol, drugs, abortion or homosexuality. The second is social and economic: the threat to the traditional white middle classes represented by economic change, today epitomised by “globalisation” and the “new economy” which are seen to undermine middle-class incomes.

The third is ethnic: the fear of established American groups that they are being swamped by alien immigrants. The accepted elements of this white middle-class community, and their targets, have both changed enormously over time. In the nineteenth century, the hatred and fear of the older Americans were directed above all at Irish Catholics. Later, Jews, Italians and others came to be seen as the main threat. Now, all these groups are accepted, and more recent immigrants, Muslims and (to a somewhat reduced extent) blacks are the hate figures.

The ethnic resentment and fear of the old Anglo-Saxon and Scots-Irish populations of the South’s Bible Belt continue to strengthen still further the forces of religious fundamentalism. Simply put, these groups feel that they have “lost their country”. Hence all the Republican rhetoric – so amazing to an outside observer – about “taking back” America.

This element in the American scene is partly responsible for one of the strangest and most depressing aspects of America today: that the country which dominates the globe and benefits more than any other from the present world order is influenced, and sometimes possessed, by a spirit of embittered, resentful, hate-filled nationalism that would seem more appropriate to a country which had been defeated, humiliated, and oppressed.

This is only comprehensible if one sees that many ordinary Americans do indeed feel that they, their religion and their culture have been defeated, humiliated and oppressed by the modern world. In particular, the decades since the 1960s have brought together a very dangerous combination of cultural change which these groups (not, it must be said, without some reason) abominate and economic change which has made them profoundly afraid for their future security and status.

This mood is not, of course, by any means true of the United States as a whole, most of which remains pluralist and tolerant, and much of which is also determinedly secular. If George Bush is defeated in the next elections, the fundamentalist elements will lose their influence over the US executive, though not over powerful sections of the US Congress. As a recent study by the Pew Research Centre concluded, America is “evenly divided and increasingly polarised” to an extent which has few precedents in American history, with questions of religious culture at the heart of the split.

The terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001 and the subsequent “war on terrorism” perfectly suited the Manichaean, apocalyptic, militarist and nationalist culture of these fundamentalist and Cromwellian elements. If – God forbid – the United States comes under really serious attack again, they may achieve a position of real and enduring dominance.

Anatol Lieven is a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington DC. He is completing a book on American nationalism.
 
Actually yes, I do have a low tolerance to your comments. I developed it after realising that other religions accept NO debate or discussion on their precepts. They won't tolerate it...why should I?

Why should the attitudes of those of other persuasions influence your views and actions? Seems odd to ape the alleged intolerance that you perceive in others. I don't consider my comments to be that contentious but surely any committed Christian that considers them to be might be inclined to "turn the other cheek" or engage in reasoned debate/discussion?

The 'christians' you refer to are what I would call unreconstructed fundamentalist puritan-protestant fanatics, and they are mostly American too...although we do have our own homegrown variety in the likes of Ian Paisley.

The Christians that I refer to where exactly?

Have you read the recent essays which draw a direct lineage from the Paisley-like Scotts Irish Protestants who settled in the American midwest to the Bible thumping fundamentalists of the region today...the heartland of George Bushs support?

I heard of the essays all right but I am not so interested in the subject that I would seek them out.

PS that link requires registration so I'll reproduce the essay...sorry but you must read it.

Must I? I think not.
 
Seems odd to ape the alleged intolerance that you perceive in others.
I don't think Theo Van Gogh simply 'perceived' the 'alleged' knife that murdered him.
What weasel words you use!
I don't consider my comments to be that contentious but surely any committed Christian that considers them to be might be inclined to "turn the other cheek"
No, as far as I'm concerned, turning the other cheek means not striking back physically, but I reserve the right to defend my faith verbally. Even This post will be deleted if not edited immediately did as much. You won't walk over us that easily.

On the other hand, I won't track you down and stab you to death for your jibes and insults.

By the way, I already said, I don't consider myself a 'committed christian'. I am simply someone from a catholic upbringing who is sick of this one sided and twisted attack on the decent folk I know who are exemplary followers of Christs teachings. They may be few and far between in this wonderful capitalist paradise we've created, but they are the salt of the earth.
The Christians that I refer to where exactly?
Right HERE...
Christians spouting hatred about any number of groups, from Gays, to Abortion Clinic Staff, to Jews, even other Christians
QED
I heard of the essays all right but I am not so interested in the subject that I would seek them out.
I provided the details to save you the trouble.
Must I? I think not.
Abide in ignorance then, if you will.
 
Tharg,

When clubman asked

The Christians that I refer to where exactly?

You should have at least had the decency to respond with a Quote from CLubman.

And if you are going to quote me, you should have at least had the decency to include the full quote.

supposed Christians spouting hatred about any number of groups, from Gays, to Abortion Clinic Staff, to Jews, even other Christians.
I don't believe any of these people are true Christians, and I certainly don't believe it would be fair to judge all Christians by these remarks.


I'm locking this thread. You can't go around making wild claims about other religions based on the actions of the fanatics, while at the same time drawing a line between christian fanatics and the rest of the christians.

-Rd
 
Right HERE...

Quote:Christians spouting hatred about any number of groups, from Gays, to Abortion Clinic Staff, to Jews, even other Christians

If you recheck your sources you will find that was not me. :\
 
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