Can't attend work on account of religion.

[dereko1969]

If one was that devout, why would one come to work and live in a Christian country?

little bit presumptive there, just because the person is a muslim does not mean they weren't born or brought up here.
having said that, the person signed up to a job, hasn't had to go to friday prayers every friday so i agree is chancing their arm and may be seeking to lodge a case for discrimination.

 

[aircobra19]

...
I fully agree with Brianne - if one was that devout why live and work in a Christian country?

That is completely irrelevent.

...the employee is not adhering to the T&Cs of their contract - ....If they are permanent advise them they are in breach of their contract and issue a formal warning - any reason not to follow the above route?

Thats the only issue IMO.

 

[truthseeker]

That is completely irrelevent.

Well actually it is relevant - if the person WAS born or brought up in this country they would have already found ways around this issue in the past.

 

[TDON]

Knowing a person that has worked in a company, where all were of this religion, I can tell you that it wouldn't work out for them in a Muslim company either.

The boss/owner and he alone, went to the Mosque on Fridays and while the "service" was an important part, I believe it was the almost the party like athmosphere of meeting up with friends & having a laugh that were more important (at least to this guy). The rest of the employees wanted to go also and were so resentful they couldn't, that there was an awful black cloud hanging around until the boss returned, with loads of other mates in tow, that he had met and invited back to have a look at his company. At which stage all the employees pretended to be happy again. (Smiled and laughed to his face and gave him daggers once he'd walked past). It didn't help that he gave off the air that he was of a higher status because he was in the privilidged position of being able to go to the Mosque & they weren't. Anyway, he just didn't care as he'd a business to run and couldn't let all of the rest of the employees go.

The thing is business goes on regardless of religion. People want a service and if yours is not available they will go to the next person on their list. At least these guys knew which side of their bread was buttered.

 

[zag]

MandaC - you may want to hold back on the details a little here. If I was the person your friend is concerned about I don't think I would be impressed that so much of my working and personal life was being discussed in a public forum if someone could identify me from your posts. Feel free to keep discussing, but just be aware of giving out too much specific detail.


z

 

[zag]

I would be inclined to go down the contractual route and don't try discussing the religious aspect. Each of the employees presumably signed the same contract which required that they be available 9-5 M-F (or whatever the hours are) and overnight at locations as required. It should be pointed out to the individual concerned that they agreed to this contract and should adhere to the conditions.

They can bring in the religious aspect if they want, but unless there is some contractual recognition of religious observances your friend should indicate that they will *try* to accommodate them, but if this is not possible then the employee must attend for work as required by the contract.

What would happen if one of the employees decided they had to get their hair done every Friday in Dublin and the other had to get their poodle groomed every Friday also ? Sure, it would be nice to accommodate them all, but that just isn't going to work. Each employee should work to the contract and fit in other non-work requirements where possible.

As a matter of interest, what does the contract say about the overnight situation ? Is this requirement written into the contract or has it just evolved for practical reasons so that people don't have to drive back from Galway at 1700 one day and then drive back there for 0900 the next day.

z

 

[aircobra19]

Well actually it is relevant - if the person WAS born or brought up in this country they would have already found ways around this issue in the past.

Its not relevant because it doesn't help the OP in any way. Also this could be their first job, or perhaps they didn't work on a Friday in a previous job. Who knows, who cares. Its not like you can bring it up in a disciplinary meeting.

 

[batty]

I would be inclined to go down the contractual route and don't try discussing the religious aspect. Each of the employees presumably signed the same contract which required that they be available 9-5 M-F (or whatever the hours are) and overnight at locations as required. It should be pointed out to the individual concerned that they agreed to this contract and should adhere to the conditions.

They can bring in the religious aspect if they want, but unless there is some contractual recognition of religious observances your friend should indicate that they will *try* to accommodate them, but if this is not possible then the employee must attend for work as required by the contract.

What would happen if one of the employees decided they had to get their hair done every Friday in Dublin and the other had to get their poodle groomed every Friday also ? Sure, it would be nice to accommodate them all, but that just isn't going to work. Each employee should work to the

z

This to me is exactly the crux of the issue here - it is nothing whatsoever to do with a person's religion. Flexibility has go both ways for it to work. what flexibility is the employee showing?

This person is actually discriminating aginst his colleagues IMO as they can't have a reciprocal arrangement with time off.

I'd love to tell my employer that i need Friday afternoons off as I need to get my roots done. if they refuse I'll claim they're discrimating against me because I'm blonde.

 

[truthseeker]

Its not relevant because it doesn't help the OP in any way. Also this could be their first job, or perhaps they didn't work on a Friday in a previous job. Who knows, who cares. Its not like you can bring it up in a disciplinary meeting.

Of course its relevant - the whole situation may be resolved before going near a disciplinary meeting by a little communication between the OPs friend and the employee about how the employee has dealt with this in other life situations and how best he may be able to deal with it now in a manner that suits all. If he is not willing to budge on it then its not unreasonable to 'wonder' why he would want to have taken the job in the first place.

 

[FredBloggs]

A little off subject but when Bob Paisley was manager of Liverpool he was chuffed at signing an Israeli international..... until someone asked him has checked if the player's religion allowed him play on Saturdays. (he could but Paisley didn't know that when he was asked)

In more recent times there was a German International who refused to play soccer on Sundays.

To each his own I suppose but in the case mentioned by the op I definitely think the employee is in breach of his contract.

 

[ClubMan]

There is no statutory entitlement to time off work for religious reasons. It's purely a contractual matter between the employer and individual (or a matter for collective bargaining in some situations). If the two parties do not come to some arrangement and the employee cannot deal with the situation then presumably they must find alternative employment that better suits their needs?

 

[annR]

I think it needs to be thrashed out with the employee whether he agreed to make himself available for these trips during the interview/ contract signing phase and whether there are praying facilities for him in the places he is doing the trips - someone posted a helpful link earlier. That's the only way to see whether he has a case or not.

From my understanding, the employee is not asking for time off work for religious reasons, but for extra consideration in that it just doesn't suit him to do the overnight calls on Thursdays. I don't think that comparing religious matters to frivolous things like having your roots done is helpful. Plenty of people get extra understanding from employers for perceived important stuff like health/family related stuff, but we're saying it's out of the question for religious matters? I guess it depends what kind of employer you want to be and whether he's worth keeping.

 

[Newbie!]

The person concerned is obviously muslim and fridays at about 1:30 is their prayer time. In my opinion (and this is not to start a debate) muslims take their religion very very seriously and are often told by the mullahs at their mosque that they cannot pray in locations that are not religious nor can they postpone praying to a later time. Each of these options is only allowed in very few circumstances. Most muslims will do what their mullah tells them.

Difficult case for employer and employee.

 

[Caveat]

Difficult case for employer and employee.

Yes, but as stated, the job (apparently) entails being in certain locations at certain times of the week - bottom line is, if the employee cannot fulfill their obligations they:

a) Are probably in breach of their contract

b) Shouldn't have taken the job in the first place

The reason for them not fulfilling their obligations is irrelevant, no matter how important their religion (or anything else that proves to be a distraction) is to them.

 

[ClubMan]

Sounds correct (and reasonable/common sense) to me.

 

[Brianne]

Actually I feel my point is relevant. This is a country in which there is no provision for people to automatically be allowed off work for religious services.This is a country where the worker took a job which involves working away from his place of religion some days. The worker knows this , and this work duty is not one that can be done always by the same people , in the interests of fairness. Otherwise the employer is discriminating against the other workers. Its part of the jobs terms and conditions. Of course there is always room for compromise on special occasions but not at the constant expense of other workers.
This may be very distressing to a person of devout religious belief, whether a Christian, Jew, Muslim or other .My point is that is one was of such religious belief, then one would work in such a way as to fit work around religion. Last time I checked this society doesn't operate that way, we are in practice a secular society, and I still fail to understand how anyone of such devout views. if such is the case, would either choose to live and work here or choose to come here to work.
The employer is quite within his rights to want the same work duties from this employee as is demanded from the other employees. Anything else is favouritism.

 

[aircobra19]

I posted this earlier, I thought, but don't see it now. Maybe not.

Of course its relevant - the whole situation may be resolved before going near a disciplinary meeting by a little communication between the OPs friend and the employee about how the employee has dealt with this in other life situations and how best he may be able to deal with it now in a manner that suits all. If he is not willing to budge on it then its not unreasonable to 'wonder' why he would want to have taken the job in the first place.

From the first page of this thread.

....Its just the person is a bit closed off against any discussions and claims to be victimised any time a discussion is brought up. Its probably something that has been bubbling away for some time but is now going to come to a head. ...

IMO (and I've no expertise in this, its just my opinion) Legally the only stick you can use is the contract they signed. If you start talking about religion and why they moved to country with a different religion you are gift wrapping a discrimination case for them. Why they can't meet their obligations in the contract is none of your business IMO.

If the person was making an effort to meet you half way, cover other people at the weekend instead, that would be different. You could consider other options. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. This person seem determined to make an issue of it, regardless of the conflict its causing in the office. You can only speculate why someone would take that approach. I'd be cynical of their motives tbh.

 

[MandaC]

In fairness to the employee, he did offer to work Saturday morning instead, but Saturday would not suit the majority of customers or the business needs, so its not really a runner, eg a job might need two people on site at once, so going thursday, coming back friday and then going back saturday will lead to additional hotel bills for employer and also a second person having to work on a saturday who will possibly not want to do so, plus majority of customers sites may not be open.

The more it goes on, it would appear that employee is bluffing a bit because people do not know much about his religion and are very wary of bringing it up. To date once the issue was raised there was a kind of huff taken and issue was left unresolved and "went away" for a time.

Person can be ok for the most part but can then just get very awkward over certain things (thats just his personality more than anything else) whereas with any of the other employees you could say "look I feel you are being a bit unreasonable over X,Y, or Z, and they might say , ok fair enough, or put forward alternative and acceptable proposals, but sometimes this person just gets awkward and refuses to budge on anything, once he digs his heels in.

If there are certain family occassion or religious occassion that any of the staff wanted to attend on a one off basis, its not an issue for the employer, once notice is given and adequate cover for the business is arranged on time. However, having someone who can t potentially attend possibly one/two days out of a possible five is a nightmare.

I think the way forward is to stick strictly to the facts of the employment contract/job and not enter into any debate about the religious side at all. Its really none of the employers concern anyway, all they require is to be able to offer a prompt service to their customers.

I personally feel that the other employees have been discriminated against to date, by being stuck with the less preferential locations and times and have put forward that opinion. I think thats partly why they are starting to voice their objections too. If it were me, I would too.

The way I see it, if it does not get resolved soon, its going to lead to bigger problems with more people involved.

Thanks for all the responses and will let you know how it goes in due course.

 

[television]

I assume that person is a muslim who needs to attend a mosque on a friday.

I would suggest that they go to any number of musques that are around ireland to attend friday prayer.

Ask the guy about attending a mosque in where ever he happens to be working at the time.

Sit down with him to discuss the mosques that are avalible to him around ireland. ring the islamic cultural centre clonskeagh to get details of these locations.

 

[mercman]

So he should be given time to travel to the Mosque, time for prayer, time for a chat and time to travel back to work. In my estimation that is about 2 hours at the Mosque and whatever time to get there and back. This bloke is trying to rewrite the rule books. And onto that he wants the company clients to work Saturdays to suit him. I think its Good Luck and Good Bye to him.