Bullying in the workplace

Salvadore said:
There’s nothing in law that entitles anyone to a good reference. If the union is saying otherwise, I wouldn’t trust any other advice they give.

Nobody likes to be called out on their performance but don’t automatically rule out that there may be an issue. As others have suggested, your partner should engage with the process but ensure everything is in writing. Ask questions, look for clarity etc. Convey the sense that she wants to turn things around.

She’s naturally hurt and her back is up. It may be that the manager just isn’t handling the process well. They may be relying on a gut feeling that performance isn’t adequate but incapable of articulating the specifics of what the problem is or how it can corrected.
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To be fair, I've heard the "you can't give a bad reference" from many sources.

IMO it's a case of Chinese whispers. The message started with you can only state dates title and nothing else, to you can't give a bad reference, to you can only give a good reference.

Most of the big companies only provide dates / title. I've had managers ringing me off the record (I can't do off the record as I'm HSE).

It's fine if they tell me the ee was exceptional etc., but once I tell them I can't do "off the record" and they end the call, I know enough to make a decision. Usually I can't do anything.

In 20 years I haven't proceeded to contract with about 10. If I could use that information it would be in the 100s.

I issue about 500 to 1000 contracts a year, depending on what Paul R says. .
 
Other than starting date and end date and grade and perhaps job description many employers do not give what we know as a written reference. But, what if a new prospective employer rings the manager of the old company. There is nothing to stop the manager (off the record)bad mouthing a former employee. Depending on where you sit this is more powerful than a bad written reference.
 
Leper said:
Other than starting date and end date and grade and perhaps job description many employers do not give what we know as a written reference. But, what if a new prospective employer rings the manager of the old company. There is nothing to stop the manager (off the record)bad mouthing a former employee. Depending on where you sit this is more powerful than a bad written reference.
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Don't read too much into it' is all it takes,
 
We are getting lost in what really is at stake here.
1. The employee feels bullied and cannot afford to cease working. (Giving up work is not an option)
2. A qualified "labour" solicitor has indicated there is little or no chance of a favourable outcome regarding alleged bullying or mal workplace practice. (probably the main external player in this situation and speaks sense)
3. From where I sit the only options are (i) Union representation and be prepared to go the distance (available) or (ii) Go down the cynical line with "My manager is brilliant and is always right and I couldn't have asked for better." (Paraphrase:- Smile and be a villain)
 
Not sure if mentioning this is relevant to this discussion but a few friends who went down the Constructive Dismissal route regretted it because they felt from a stress level alone it left them worn out. I have also seen many discussions on AAM over the years where people expressed the same opinion.
 
Up Rovers said:
Not sure if mentioning this relevant to this discussion but a few friends who went down the Constructive Dismissal route regretted it because they felt from a stress level alone it left them worn out. I have also seen many discussions on AAM over the years where people expressed the same opinion.
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I know a few people over the years who have gone to Tribunals over work place grievances, none of them came out of it happy. There is a huge amount of stress involved, in addition to the stress that has already been caused. Then there is the cost of legal advice. It's not cheap and companies can quite easily cover these costs whereas an employee will struggle. Then it takes a very long time to get an outcome of the process, with it usually being months after the due date and even if you win, the employer can appeal (more costs and time).
 
As already stated, there is no statutory entitlement in Irish law that an employer must provide a reference, let alone a good one. Likewise, they do not have to provide a confirmation of employment.

Many companies now have stopped providing references and will just provide a confirmation of employment due to potential liability or reputation issues around recommendations. Where I work haven't paid much notice to references for years, the best ones were often employers happy to be rid of a sub-par employee or were written by friends.
 
Salvadore said:
She’s naturally hurt and her back is up. It may be that the manager just isn’t handling the process well. They may be relying on a gut feeling that performance isn’t adequate but incapable of articulating the specifics of what the problem is or how it can corrected.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with her performance. This is personal and it rattles me that people seem to think that a PIP is 100% born out of good intentions - to help someone perform better at their job and that there are no occasions where it can be used to manage someone out who doesn't fit cultural expectations within an organization such as working outside of contractual work hours. And possibly being rejected by her.
 
Leo said:
As already stated, there is no statutory entitlement in Irish law that an employer must provide a reference, let alone a good one. Likewise, they do not have to provide a confirmation of employment.

Many companies now have stopped providing references and will just provide a confirmation of employment due to potential liability or reputation issues around recommendations. Where I work haven't paid much notice to references for years, the best ones were often employers happy to be rid of a sub-par employee or were written by friends.
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She'll touch base with the union again regarding that and I'll let you know what they say. She's already had one conversation regarding that and it was said that they will provide reference etc.
 
Leper said:
We are getting lost in what really is at stake here.
1. The employee feels bullied and cannot afford to cease working. (Giving up work is not an option)
2. A qualified "labour" solicitor has indicated there is little or no chance of a favourable outcome regarding alleged bullying or mal workplace practice. (probably the main external player in this situation and speaks sense)
3. From where I sit the only options are (i) Union representation and be prepared to go the distance (available) or (ii) Go down the cynical line with "My manager is brilliant and is always right and I couldn't have asked for better." (Paraphrase:- Smile and be a villain)
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She's in the middle of crossing between no. 3 point (i) and (ii). But when it's not about your performance and the true nature of the manager's complaint is personal then it's become a dangerous process as the manager now dislikes my partner. It's very messy and stressful at the moment for her. Being told your work is incorrect whilst others are doing it under her nose including manager himself (gas-lighting). The process from where I am standing is a tool used to abuse, bully and drive a person out.
 
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Your partner and you sound like very principled people. Your partner may be better than her own boss at her job- he may be jealous: this is a surprisingly common ground for bullying.
Or it may be that further up there has been a direction to cut down staff numbers.
Pips are , as you rightly say, sometimes used to manage people out.
So what can Your partner do?
Ye need the money.
Firstly, be careful with union. It may well be that manager is also talking to union.
And your partner has got wrong advice from them already (re: reference)
your wife should Comply with the pip and put the ball back in managers court- ask him exactly what he wants.
Your wife should, meanwhile, apply for other jobs. Once she's out and in a new job she can then turn around and sue if that's what she still wants.
Right now she's naturally stressed and angry.
Remember, revenge is a dish best served cold ;)
 
kingvagabond said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with her performance. This is personal and it rattles me that people seem to think that a PIP is 100% born out of good intentions - to help someone perform better at their job and that there are no occasions where it can be used to manage someone out who doesn't fit cultural expectations within an organization such as working outside of contractual work hours. And possibly being rejected by her.
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Do you know why it is personal?
 
kingvagabond said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with her performance. This is personal and it rattles me that people seem to think that a PIP is 100% born out of good intentions - to help someone perform better at their job and that there are no occasions where it can be used to manage someone out who doesn't fit cultural expectations within an organization such as working outside of contractual work hours. And possibly being rejected by her.
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Well if you’re satisfied that the PIP is just a ruse, then you have to ask yourselves why they really want your partner out. The company isn’t going to tell you explicitly.

You say it’s personal but if there’s a particular reason they want her out, maybe you need to start there.

As has been said, organisations have ways of ‘managing’ people out if they really no longer want them. But it you can do something about the reason they no longer want the person, this would seem the best solution.
 
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No organisation is ever going to admit to managing someone out through a pip.
the whole point of a pip, when carried out in good faith, is to identify the exact problems that have arisen and then give time to remedy those problems.
That doesn't appear to be happening here (and yes I know we only have one side of the story)
however if an organisation is using a pip, for example to cut down staff numbers/ because of personality clash/ because the owners wife's niece wants the job they are never going to
admit that to employee.
 
kingvagabond said:
She'll touch base with the union again regarding that and I'll let you know what they say. She's already had one conversation regarding that and it was said that they will provide reference etc.
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There may be a local agreement or a precedent in place that means the employer is bound to provide one, but there definitely is no requirement in law.
 
I would remind the OP that the employer is not the enemy here. There may be a case of an over zealous manager or even an over zealous union rep or both. Don't lose sight of the objective here and work towards a good result.
 
I have not read all the comments but to ensure your partner is writing correctly, would she use Grammarly for word check ?
 
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