Blood is Boiling - "Don't pay the revenue"

M

mo3art

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I'm not sure whether this should be in let off steam, if so, clubman might oblige..........

We've been approved in principle for a release of equity in our ppr and purchase of our first investment property. I'm completely shocked at the amount of "experts" who have crawled out of the woodwork. The overwhelming message from them seems to be that we should somehow evade the Revenue Commisioners and not pay any tax on the rental income from the property at all.

Needless to say, having never operated in a grey economy, this is something I don't intend to do in any circumstances, I'm well aware of the consequences of these actions.

Has anybody come up against these "experts", who might I add have their own investment properties and are clearly getting away with it? I always thought that asking others in similar situations for their advice and experience was a good idea, but i'm seriously beginning to regret opening my trap!
 
If you are worried about these people not getting cuaght rest assured their is too much money involved in propert rental for the revenue to turn a blind eye indefinitely

They are just trying to catch up with the current tax evasion they have stumbled across in the past few years

It is not worth trying to evade the tax, as there are now too many places that you acn be reported as a landlord

Revenue give a tax credit to tenants who report their landlord (whether he is declaring or not), anyone can report a complaint to the PRTB and as always your PPS no goes on all stamp duty filings

Landlords will be the next DIRT but for one exception the amounts will be much more dramatic and for longer periods

The amount of tax due on an on-going basis is not a lot but year after year it becomes (along withe interest and penalties) a very lage amount, not to mention stamp duty avoidance

And remember Revenue will be aware that landlords have access to large amounts of cash, through re-financing of their investment properties, to pay any tax and/or penalties

Very atrractive from a tax collection point of veiw

As I said above it is not worth the hassle of evading the tax as it is a long term investment and if found out at any stage Revenue will not hesitate to go back

[email protected]
 
mo3art said:
I'm completely shocked at the amount of "experts" who have crawled out of the woodwork. The overwhelming message from them seems to be that we should somehow evade the Revenue Commisioners and not pay any tax on the rental income from the property at all.
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What sort of experts? Are you saying that professionals (e.g. estate agents, solicitors, builders etc.) are recommending this course of action? Or is it somebody else?
 
Sorry if I didn't make that clear - "experts" meaning those who believe they know it all. They're definitely not professionals, I don't think any of the professionals advice I've sought have advocated evading the tax system.

Don't worry, I have completely no intentions of attempting to do the same myself! I think what has irritated me the most is the fact that so many people seem to get away with it, and actually advise you to do the same.
 
But are these people in any way involved in the transaction or are they simply hurlers on the ditch? Lots of people come up with all sorts of schemes/scams that will ostensibly save money but which are usually predicated on a lack of understanding of the (e.g. tax) rules that apply and the powers that the authorities (e.g. Revenue) have to investigate and prosecute transgressions.
 
Hi Mo3art - I share your frustration. I reckon the best approach is a simple, calm direct challenge to their financial & ethical position to make it clear that tax evasion is no longer socially acceptable. Given the excessively generous tax breaks given to property investors via uncapped mortgage interest relief, despite the fairly low relief given to residential purchasers, most investors will have little or no tax liability in the early years anyway. It would seem to be incredibly dumb to go down the 'under the table' route, given that the requirement for landlords registration, tenants rent relief, insurance etc.
 
Not sure what you mean by hurlers on the pitch clubman but just to give you an idea - We asked the advice of someone who puchased an investment property last year and mentioned our likely tax liability to which they replied - "oh I rang the tax office and they said if I didn't want anything from them, they didn't want anything from me" (my eyes are rolling here)
Or other comments like "just don't tell them" - for goodness sake, we have to pay stamp duty on the blinking property, of course they'll know we've bought a second house = Mo's got steam coming out of her ears at this stage ;)
 
You should assuredly pay your tax liabilities on this one as they are very much on top this type of income.







Who ever advised you of the under the table scheme is obviously operating on 1980's regulations.







Although I am not sold on the whole idea of Tax, my ethos is "to screw the government as they screw us most of the time" but to do it sensibly. But this particular one should not go unpaid as it will be another issue a few years down the road, although some people here on this site hold too much faith in the powers of the Revenue.
 
90210 said:
my ethos is "to screw the government as they screw us most of the time" but to do it sensibly.
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Can you explain what you mean by "sensibly" in this context?

although some people here on this site hold too much faith in the powers of the Revenue.
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Maybe you can expand on this too? For what it's worth I personally would always discourage people from engaging in tax evasion not just because it might be considered by some to be morally wrong or because Revenue may catch up with it at some stage but because it's simply not prudent to do so. If individuals decide to chance it then that's up to them.
 
Mo3art - Don't worry about everyone else - the tax man will catch up, maybe not soon but at some stage in the future. You're very wise to not involve yourself in anything ilegal......
 
brodiebabe said:
Mo3art - Don't worry about everyone else - the tax man will catch up, maybe not soon but at some stage in the future. You're very wise to not involve yourself in anything ilegal......
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you are right that it is not wise to involve yourself in anything illegal it just takes one tenant to "spill the beans" ..... and they don't even need your PPS number ....

However do you think the popularity of the government would suffer as a result .....
there are a lot of it around ...... all the rentals I have experienced in my renting days as a student where illegal.
The only way to get your deposit back as a student was to make them fill out the rent relief form ah ya those where the days ....

don't politicians make popular decisions ???
 
"I personally would always discourage people from engaging in tax evasion not just because it might be considered by some to be morally wrong or because Revenue may catch up with it at some stage but because it's simply not prudent to do so. If individuals decide to chance it then that's up to them."



And I am one of those individuals Clubman. The whole argument of Tax Evasion is only morally wrong if you live within a state or under a government who represents the people and fulfils their spending and legislative responsibilities with the utmost integrity and honesty. My belief is that we do not live in such a state.

Some Tax has to be paid, certain tax onuses are a must but not all.

No matter how much we like to think that the days of brown envelopes, back hander's and done deals are over it is still alive and well. The thieves have not given up, they have just adjusted to the Revenues tactics, but for Joe Public best to just keep your head down and pay your tax.



The industry of Property, Horseracing, Finance, Law and many Doctors and upper echelon professions are still funnelling funds helped by the most immoral of accountants.



I speak from experience however I cannot divulge such experience, as this would jeopardise my position
 
We're getting off topic now but ...
90210 said:
The whole argument of Tax Evasion is only morally wrong if you live within a state or under a government who represents the people and fulfils their spending and legislative responsibilities with the utmost integrity and honesty. My belief is that we do not live in such a state.
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The honesty and integrity part is a bit subjective but to argue that we don't get the government that we democratically elect is simply ridiculous.
Some Tax has to be paid, certain tax onuses are a must but not all.
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Until such time as the laws are legitimately altered all relevant taxes should be paid. If one objects to the current regime then one is free to campaign directly or indirectly to have it changed. This would be the prudent and civilised way to operate.
I speak from experience however I cannot divulge such experience, as this would jeopardise my position
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I'm sure that you could report illegality to the relevant authorities in confidence seeing that you obviously have strong views on the issue of taxation. Or are you saying that your position would be jeopardised because it depends in some way on illegal behaviour not being uncovered?
 
I don’t want to off on a "letting off steam" discussion about the government.

"The honesty and integrity part is a bit subjective”, not really Clubman a little diving into the history of politics in Ireland and the current situation within our framework of hospitals, schools, roads, Gardai (the list goes on) will reveal that not only the current government but all previous governments have let me and you down. However others may not feel that strongly about this but our money is being wasted in many areas, no doubt about it. Just look at the Luas project, Port Tunnel Project, Planning and Development its across the whole board.



"to argue that we don't get the government that we democratically elect is simply ridiculous" - I am not saying that at all, of course we do get the government we elect, its just that I feel that most of the politicians are prone to hookery and cronyism to the determent of the tax payer and it has been proven. We don’t get what we pay for; the much-abounded term of “value for money” does not exist in Ireland.



The Philosophy of Tax is a great and wonderful thing, however the reality is somewhat quite different in this country oppose to others, the Corporate are sucking up far too much of our Tax funds without making proper contributions.

But the good old Irish don’t complain, don’t taker to the streets, just keep their head down and do what they are told.

In relation to my Tax issues, cannot and will not jeopardise it for obvious reasons.
 
"the Corporate are sucking up far too much of our Tax funds without making proper contributions" Can you expand on that please 90210?
I think that if you look into the detail of where the money goes in most countries you will find a lot of waste. For all the shrillness in the media I don't think we are as bad as most.
 
Most companies get little or no financial assistance from the State. Those that do (ie multinational manufacturers in receipt of grants) are all major net contributors to the State coffers through both Corporation Tax and employer PAYE/PRSI
 
I think that if you look into the detail of where the money goes in most countries you will find a lot of waste. For all the shrillness in the media I don't think we are as bad as most.[/QUOTE]


ah now ...... just because we are not as bad as most countries don't make it right .....!!!!!!!
it almost like saying why should I pay my tax on my one investment sure there are people out there with numerous rental properties not paying any tax .......

we should always demand “value for money” no matter what other gov. do !!
 
Zardebt I totally agree with you, as far everyone else I do not want to go into this discussion, as it is a fruitless exercise as far as I am concerned.



But,



Ubiquitous, surely you jest, they use our roads, fire services, infrastructure, support services, civil services my point is that they take, take, take, and don’t give anything back not enough.

They contribute to tax and PRSI , but we do actually work for them to do that

As far as grants are concerned don’t make me laugh HP, Gateway, Intel, the list goes on and on. A perfect example is the contribution towards cash movements and security paid by the bank to cover the costs of Gardai and Army, 3% of the total cost CONTIBUTED BY THE BANKS was the last figure mentioned, but I know the banks cant afford it so muggins Tax Payer forks it out. ahhhsure
 
As I said, banks and other large companies, as well as SME's, are major net contributors to the Exchequer even after account is taken of the infrastructual and other State services that they use. Who else paid the €5.332 billion received by the Exchequer in Corporation Tax in 2004? This alone was over five times the total cost of the entire Garda budget for 2004. Employers PRSI also accounted for the lions share of the €8.5 billion of PRSI collected by the State in 2004.

Btw, I agree with you that the banks should be forced to pay the full cost of cash security escort services provided by the State. However your implied argument that tax evasion is justified because this sort of anomaly has not yet been addressed is self-serving in the extreme.
 
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