Bank Made Up Security

[mrbea]

we have had numerous threads of people looking for legal loopholes that will allow them a quick exit from their problems.

I do not think anyone is looking for or will get "a quick exit from their problems." However, in those few cases ( and it probably is only a fraction of 1% of mortgages ) where banks / building societies behaved fraudulently and did not act appropriatley, and where the borrower would not be in the position he/she is in but for the bank acting fraudulently, then I think its reasonable to suggest those individuals in the bank should be exposed. The banks should take some responsibility for the matter. If fraud is reported to them they should investigate it and take action. Otherwise it may happen again. The borrower is partly responsible for the situation he/she finds him/herself in, but imho if a banker acted fraudulently then they are also at least partly responsible for the situation.

I am sure the foreign banks who lent money to our banks thought our bankers should have acted with some responsibility. In other jurisdictions banks and bankers who acted fraudulently and carelessly, to the detriment of others, get exposed and punished.

 

[Gerry Canning]

Hear, hear

I hear you all.

Maybe too many threads are looking for get out clauses and maybe its just me , but I see the Bankers circling the wagons and cutely ensuring none of their brethern will be held to account because if even one is caught the whole false edifice of (professional lending ) falls.

I do not want to sound like an apologist for consumer chanchers but I sure as hell see little in the way of sanction on Bank officials !

 

[44brendan]

Just to clarify some misconceptions. Firstly, the liability of the OP to payback the loan is not effected by any internal altering of documentation by specific bank staff. There is no legal rationale for nullifying the legal contract. The OP applied for a loan and the funds were issued to him.
Secondly there are no excuses for any internal altering of documentation by bank staff. Unfortunately these bad practises did take place but where bank authorities were made aware of them by either clients or internal audit appropriate action was taken against individuals involved. There is no practise in any bank of ignoring a deliberate falsification of information. The OP has been made aware of such an instance and should immediately report this matter to the fraud department of his bank. He is not at a loss as a result of this fraud, but the bank and the taxpayer is.

 

[Gerry Canning]

44brendan.

I would love to share your optomism that Banks will act on a deliberate falsification of information.Sadly the Mortgage books have too much( shall we say suspect info?)What happened was that issues were not looked at too hard .



I think we fundamentally disagree on this .

ie Doctors differ,patients die !
I hope time/experience proves you right ,because I would love to be wrong on this.

No offence intended to genuine Bank people.

 

[Bronte]

It is very unlikely that Aib will take action on the staff member here. , Too many of AIB staff were at (unusual) practices, opening one case of poor lending will only continue to show the contamination that permeated AIB.(AIB have a lot of form over unethical practices over the years)
Whilst there is no (reckless lending) law , if Alpha can show loss Aib will be forced to at least try to be fair.

My own view is that it was not a case of staff members operating illegally, but of pressure from above to compete and lend as much as possible during the madness. It happened to me in my Bank, Ulsterbank, they were literally in such a rush to lend that all previous checks were thrown out the window, being offered more than was requested, not needing the usual documentation etc. I mentioned on AAM before that I believe my last loan from that is probably not fully legitimate, but you know what, I took the money and I'm paying it back. It wasn't forced on me. I did my figures and borrowed what made added up, not what a bank added up for me. I have a sibling in the same scenario, offered, and I think actually it was AIB, many multiples of salary, told he was mad not to take it etc. Luckily he too added it up and ignored the bank.

When one speaks to bank staff now about what happened those stellar bank performers you find they are quietly pensioned off, or put in a safe department, never to see the light of day again. And you can be sure the bank will defend them and vice versa, we will never find out what really went on. But it came from the top.

 

[Alpha002]

All, thanks for your responses (both sarcastic and honest).

Some points to note about my post:
- I have been trying to come to a resolution with AIB for the past 4 years offering them solutions (such as extensions, selling the property with a write-off on the remaining outstanding balance as the property is in Dublin and on a very good tracker rate, warehousing, etc..). I have been offering these solutions over the past 4 years to no avail. My thoughts are that I offered these solutions 2-3 years back when AIB was not in a position to handle them.
- I am not looking to get "a get out of jail free card".
- I am not a chancer nor am I am AIB.
- I am a middle class person in severe financial distress looking for some advice.
- I am not a strategic defaulter.
- I am not looking for pity, just anything that might assist me in finding a joint solution with AIB.
- I found a discrepancy within my file and sought assistance on this site.

My own personal thoughts are that this is internal fraud within the bank.

My follow on question to the site is as follow:
- Should I raise this point as part of my new negotiations with the bank or should I park it until negotiations have run its course?

Again all advice (both sarcastic and honest) is welcome.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Alpha

The bit which got me on my high moral horse was this bit

Will this invalidate the loan?

I think it would be well worth your while starting a new thread in the following format

Standard Format for mortgage arrears Case Studies

My general approach would be to try to focus on the relevant issues. If you try to use an irrelevant issue to resolve your problems, you will be unfocused and unsuccessful.

Brendan

 

[Bronte]

- I have been trying to come to a resolution with AIB for the past 4 years offering them solutions

I have been offering these solutions over the past 4 years to no avail.

- I am a middle class person in severe financial distress looking for some advice.

- I am not looking for pity, just anything that might assist me in finding a joint solution with AIB.

- I found a discrepancy within my file and sought assistance on this site.

Firstly we cannot give you any advice whatsoever until you give us your financial details. How can you just pick one thing, something dodgy about the paperwork and ask will that help you. There has been absolutely no evidence so far that will work. But there have been, I'd say in the last couple of years, many strange people and organisations coming out of the wood work claiming they have solutions, and people are actually buying this. I believe they are conning people and we've had enough of this nonsense so perhaps that's why you got such a negative response on here, that combined with the fact in the last week there were quite a few posters taking this tack.

You say you've offered AIB 4 solutions. Maybe they were sound solutions, but it's also possible they were not. Equally possible is that AIB were not prepared to listen, that does seem to the case, from my own experience and readings, but I believe they are now interested in solutions. So if you come up with a solution that works for them, and you must put yourself in their place, not yours, then maybe you can get through this. But if you're hiding money, trying to discount a spouses income, they know it. So figures please and let's try and help you.

Have you sought help from a professional in your dealings with AIB. You've offered 4 solutions, so I assume you are well capable of understanding the financial mess you are in. But one should always seek a second opinion, that can be a professional, that can be AAM etc. It's good to stand back and let others tell you what they see. It will give you a different prospective. And I'm sorry you are under such stress. So let's try and see if that's possible.

 

[dereko1969]

All, thanks for your responses (both sarcastic and honest).

Some points to note about my post:
- I have been trying to come to a resolution with AIB for the past 4 years offering them solutions (such as extensions, selling the property with a write-off on the remaining outstanding balance as the property is in Dublin and on a very good tracker rate, warehousing, etc..). I have been offering these solutions over the past 4 years to no avail. My thoughts are that I offered these solutions 2-3 years back when AIB was not in a position to handle them.
- I am not looking to get "a get out of jail free card".
- I am not a chancer nor am I am AIB.
- I am a middle class person in severe financial distress looking for some advice.
- I am not a strategic defaulter.
- I am not looking for pity, just anything that might assist me in finding a joint solution with AIB.
- I found a discrepancy within my file and sought assistance on this site.

My own personal thoughts are that this is internal fraud within the bank.

My follow on question to the site is as follow:
- Should I raise this point as part of my new negotiations with the bank or should I park it until negotiations have run its course?

Again all advice (both sarcastic and honest) is welcome.

It would seem to me that if you're not in arrears (and you haven't provided any information in that regard) that the Banks (all of them, not just AIB) are not interested.

The "solutions" you've offered AIB are basically write-offs of varying degrees, why would they take these solutions if you're meeting your obligations?

As advised, fill out the template with all your details.

 

[mrbea]

As part of the Freedom of Information Act, I obtained my file. Within the file, I obtained my the underwriter notes and bank manager notes. The underwriter was not keen in approving the loan. It would seem that the Bank Manager made up a security (value of 300K) that I had offered to the bank as security. This seemed to have put the underwriter at ease. The loan was then approved.
This security never existed and I only found out about it thru reading the internal notes.

My own personal thoughts are that this is internal fraud within the bank.

My follow on question to the site is as follow:
- Should I raise this point as part of my new negotiations with the bank or should I park it until negotiations have run its course?

I suspect the bank will like you (or others) bringing up this topic as much as the board of the Central Remedial Clinic welcomed enquiries about renumeration and past practices within the top of the CRC. The thing is, it seems you have been under severe financial stress for years. What have you got to lose by reporting suspected fraud within the bank and letting some bankers share some stress, if they deserve it? I think sooner or later you have a moral duty to report it, so that such malpractice will not occur again so easily.

My own view is that it was not a case of staff members operating illegally, but of pressure from above to compete and lend as much as possible during the madness. It happened to me in my Bank, Ulsterbank, they were literally in such a rush to lend that all previous checks were thrown out the window, being offered more than was requested, not needing the usual documentation etc.

There is a big difference between offering more than was requested and making up figures on loan approval sheets....especially when as a result of those made up figures decisions were then made which changed peoples lives for the worse. Most bankers did not act fraudulently in their selfish pursuit of targets / bonuses, but imho those who did should face the music. Saying they were just following orders does not cut the mustard. There was supposed to be regulation. Soldiers in a democracy who commit war crimes are as much to blame as their leaders. The truth will out yet.

 

[dereko1969]

I suspect the bank will like you (or others) bringing up this topic as much as the board of the Central Remedial Clinic welcomed enquiries about renumeration and past practices within the top of the CRC. The thing is, it seems you have been under severe financial stress for years. What have you got to lose by reporting suspected fraud within the bank and letting some bankers share some stress, if they deserve it? I think sooner or later you have a moral duty to report it, so that such malpractice will not occur again so easily.



There is a big difference between offering more than was requested and making up figures on loan approval sheets....especially when as a result of those made up figures decisions were then made which changed peoples lives for the worse. Most bankers did not act fraudulently in their selfish pursuit of targets / bonuses, but imho those who did should face the music. Saying they were just following orders does not cut the mustard. There was supposed to be regulation. Soldiers in a democracy who commit war crimes are as much to blame as their leaders. The truth will out yet.[/QUOTE]

The OP got the loan that they applied for, they have not denied that, therefore whether there was fraudulent activity in relation to the "security" is moot.

 

[mrbea]

The OP got the loan that they applied for, they have not denied that, therefore whether there was fraudulent activity in relation to the "security" is moot.

Moot, according to the dictionary, means something along the lines of "open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful". The individual banker who allegely indulged in fraudulent activity would have done so in order for the OP to have got the loan. The OP has seemingly discovered the paper trail which shows the banker did indulge in fraudulent activity. If there was internal fraudulent activity, that cannot be "moot" just because the OP got approved the loan as a result of the "Bank Manager (who) made up a security, value of 300K"

You could claim that the relevance of the (alleged) fraudulent internal activity in the bank to the OP's loan is "moot", that would be a different point. However imho even if that is moot, that does not excuse such activity within the bank (if it took place) or the need to investigate it.

People investigated the CRC not because they wanted to get their own money back which they may have donated over the years : it was eventually investigated because there may have been some degree of greed, selfishness and wrongdoing at the top of the CRC.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Moot, according to the dictionary, means something along the lines of "open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful".

Hi Mr b

derek used the word "moot" in its most common meaning of irrelevant.


Whether or not there was a fraud, is irrelevant to the OP's case - he is still fully liable for the loan.

 

[mrbea]

Whether or not there was a fraud, is irrelevant to the OP's case - he is still fully liable for the loan.

My point was internal fraud in the bank should be investigated, and if necessary punished. The OP was wondering should he raise "this point as part of new negotiations with the bank or should (he) park it until negotiations have run its course?" I am wondering should he let the bank investigate it themselves, first at any rate, or else report it straight to the fraud section of the Gardai?


If fraud was discovered and it appears obvious the OP would not have got the loan without internal bank fraud, then imho it is open to debate (moot) if the OP should take 100% of the pain or not. You are possibly right, the OP may well take 100% of the pain under the law (and wink wink) as it stands in this country, but do you not agree the "bank made up security" case in this particular loan in this particular bank should be investigated anyway?

 

[dereko1969]

My point was internal fraud in the bank should be investigated, and if necessary punished. The OP was wondering should he raise "this point as part of new negotiations with the bank or should (he) park it until negotiations have run its course?" I am wondering should he let the bank investigate it themselves, first at any rate, or else report it straight to the fraud section of the Gardai?


If fraud was discovered and it appears obvious the OP would not have got the loan without internal bank fraud, then imho it is open to debate (moot) if the OP should take 100% of the pain or not. You are possibly right, the OP may well take 100% of the pain under the law (and wink wink) as it stands in this country, but do you not agree the "bank made up security" case in this particular loan in this particular bank should be investigated anyway?

No one on here has stated that the matter should not be raised/investigated but it will not make any difference to the fact that the OP was given a loan that they requested and had no problems accepting (at the time).

The OP asked if this would make his/her loan null and void and the answer to that is no.

 

[mrbea]

The OP asked if this would make his/her loan null and void and the answer to that is no.

The OP has stated he is "not looking to get "a get out of jail free card"", but he has asked should he report the alleged fraud now or later - what do you think? Or should he just go straight to the fraud section of the Gardai?