Are fee-paying schools worth it?

arbitron

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Some recent articles on the topic:

Why fees for Ireland’s most prestigious private schools are on the rise

Ireland is hostage to Rich Daddy Syndrome

Most of the 700 secondary schools in Ireland are technically "private", i.e. they are not owned by the state. While some are non-religious, most are owned by a church and run by a local school board. This is similar in structure to voluntary (public) hospitals like the Mater or St. Vincents.

Most post-primary schools became de facto public schools when they signed up to the free fees scheme back in the late 1960s, so they are almost fully funded by grants from the Dept of Education. They depend on donations or "voluntary contributions" from parents/communities for 5-10% of their costs.

Separate to these, there are approx. 50 fee-paying schools across the 4 provinces, with the majority in Dublin. These are what most people refer to as "private schools". Most are Catholic but many were set up to cater to smaller religious denominations, e.g. Stratford was originally Jewish.

Parents send their children to private school for various reasons: they may be alumni themselves, the school may be local to them (or far away if boarding!), the facilities may be nicer, there may be better/unique educational opportunities (e.g. St Kilians German School), they may offer specific religious education, networking opportunities etc. One of the most common stated reasons is to give students the best opportunity to progress to third level.

These schools now charge between €4,000 and €10,000 per child per annum. Boarding schools can charge up to €27,000(!) a year. These schools receive government funding, although since 2019 it has decreased. The schools claim that they are not just for the wealthy. They say they include low-income students on scholarships as well as middle-income students whose parents have saved/sacrificed to afford the fees.

In spite of the big charges, these schools rely heavily on government grants, averaging about €2.5 million per school per year, or around €4,700 per child. Dept of Education covers upto 50% of private school running costs. This is more than €1bn over the past decade.

Are private schools good value for parents? If getting into UCD or Trinity is the goal then it's actually not clear that they are worth it as many public schools get equal or better results. No doubt they are good for building networks though.

Are they good value for the state? The schools argue that if they lost funding they would have to close and the state would then need to create up to 27,000 public school places.
 
Are private schools good value for parents? If getting into UCD or Trinity is the goal then it's actually not clear that they are worth it as many public schools get equal or better results. No doubt they are good for building networks though.
If that is the goal, I would suggest sending you child to one of the grind schools for 5th and 6th year. So instead of spending 6 years on private school education, spend it on 2 years.

Both my kids go to private schools. We choose both because we felt it would suit the kind of children they are and so far, they both seem very happy (TY boy and 1st year girl). If they didn't get into the schools they are in, they would have gone to the local non fee paying school.
 
Are they better for building networks ? Maybe in the law, but has the rest of Ireland not moved on.

I’ve been working in technology for 30 years, I have never experienced everyone caring what school you went to .
I didn’t go to a fee paying school but I know loads of people who did and it did not make one difference to their career .

Of course, the schools and alumni love to tell you that as it’s one of their selling points
 
Speaking as a person who boarded the Innisfallen from Cork to the UK the same day I completed my Inter Cert I believe if the student is an honest school going grafter it doesn't matter what school he/she attends. Personally, I think schools should be preparing its students for life (academically and reality) and many of them do. But, Grind Schools are just that i.e. Grind Schools. Come to think of it, I was an emigrant at age 16.

I returned to Ireland two years later after being successful in a Civil Service Exam done a couple of years earlier and there was a letter informing me to complete a test in oral Irish before my appointment. I spoke more Irish than the person examining me and later I completed my Leaving Cert successfully studying alone at home. I never made it to 3rd Level though.
 
I can't even remember my Leaving cert results but I did enough to get me to Uni

Private schools offer better facilities, smaller class sizes and perhaps more attention to students and that probably helps a bit but thats it.
 
It appears to be a really really big deal for Dublin folk. Professionals in their 30s interviews telling you where they did their Leaving Cert etc. Believing that single sex is the only way to educate teenagers (although thankfully that is showing signs of changing).

I think a lot of professional networks are built now in college and in the workplace and not necessarily who you may have met between the ages of 13-19. It was probably very important in the days when we had smaller professional classes and only the very wealthy worked in those roles. Now if you are focused and have some supports at home, with the fees the way they are (eg 2k a year for a medical degree???) there are a lot of options.

And there are many various factors predicting academic success, eg wealthier parents tend to be college educated meaning there is a history of higher education, they have funds to pay for grinds, students probably don't have a part time job taking away from study time etc. Absolutely smaller class sizes will help and great sporting facilities, but they are not the be all and end all. Everyone enters college through an anonymised system, so playing rugby for your school won't get you into a degree (though it may help in an interview, but is that your natural team work and leadership skills that got you success in sport rather than the other way around???).


I believe personally that the best way to support your children is in the home, supporting your kids to reach their potential. I myself went to the most decrepit, old fashioned, not a very high reputation school and because of my home environment and self direction I thrived academically. I don't think I would have done any better in a fee paying school (and mathematically it would have been near impossible to!) I don't plan to send my kids to a private school, there is a perfectly fine one close to our home. I plan to invest in their future in a different way - potentially the grind school route if they want to get top points for certain courses...but each to their own and if parents choose to invest in this way then that is their choice. But it is not the only way you can set your kids on a good path into adulthood.
 
It's really all about the student group that you want your child to be in. I didn't go to a private school but it was an average middle class south Dublin secondary. I'd suggest that there is a bigger gap between by non fee paying school and a non fee paying secondary in Killinardan than there is between my school and Terenure College even though as a DEIS school the one in Killinarden is probably getting as much overall funding per pupil as Terenure.
There are two types of schools; not public and private but the ones where you get slagged for not doing your homework and being thick and the ones where you get slagged for doing your homework.

If you want that level of social exclusion but don't want to splash the cash then sent your kids to a Gaelscoil; generally a nice middle class student cohort with very few immigrants or kids with additional needs and you can be all virtuous about it and give out about the two-tiered education system perpetuated by fee paying schools.

My view is that if parents sacrifice to do what they consider to be the best for their children then I certainly won't condemn them for sending their children to private schools. My Ex wanted ours in private schools so that's where they went. I wasn't a big fan of the idea and I certainly don't think they got a better education there but if we are going to stop parents directing financial resources to give their children a better educational outcome are we going to stop teachers helping their own children with their homework?

If a plumber who is bad as Maths works extra hours to get Maths grinds for their child how is that different from a maths Teacher helping their own child with their homework?
 
On a side note a recent newsletter from the principal of my daughters school started with " Myself and Ms. XXXX have organised the Carol Service". If the woman in charge starts sentences like that then what hope is there for the children? I wouldn't mind but it's an exceptional learning environment full of exceptional teachers, or so they keep telling me.
 
I wonder are teachers more accountable in fee paying schools or held to higher standards and therefore easier to replace if not cutting the mustard

My kids are in local non fee paying and the quality (consistency across subjects) and absence rate of the teachers is poor.
 
Its partially a function of where you live as well (if in Dublin). My kids go to the local national school, the attached secondary school is fee paying and its where they will go, but im not even sure if there is a non fee paying alternative around me.

I boarded as a kid (down the country) the school i went to was definitely a cut above the other options in the area (i could also have attended as a non fee paying day pupil, both my parents boarded so we all did as well)
 
I wonder are teachers more accountable in fee paying schools or held to higher standards and therefore easier to replace if not cutting the mustard

My kids are in local non fee paying and the quality (consistency across subjects) and absence rate of the teachers is poor.
This depends on their contracts. The DES pay a percentage of teaching staff in private schools. Not all. Any on private contracts are much more susceptible to the chop.

Anyone on full time or CID contracts in that private school that are department paid it’s the same in non fee paying schools

My general view is that there are good and poor teachers in every school. The private schools tend to have much better facilities, offer a wider range of ECA’s and have more elaborate school trips etc.

On an other note it’s easier to expel a student from a private school (or suggest they leave). Virtually impossible these days from non fee paying
 
Parents send their children to private school for various reasons: they may be alumni themselves, the school may be local to them (or far away if boarding!), the facilities may be nicer, there may be better/unique educational opportunities (e.g. St Kilians German School), they may offer specific religious education, networking opportunities etc. One of the most common stated reasons is to give students the best opportunity to progress to third level.

So presumably Paul Murphy TD went to St Kilians so he could learn to read the works of Karl Marx in the original German!
 
Like anything, i think it is important to consider the alternatives. In some parts of Dublin, parents feel under pressure to send their kids to fee-paying schools because the local schools in their area may have particularly poor reputations & have a low % of students progressing to 3rd level compared to fee-paying schools.
 
The home environment is key, but there is also a lot to said for an environment where there’s probably greater unity of purpose (i.e. success) and greater alignment towards that success. Plus students typically get to do better and more broader things outside of school (e.g. trips, exchanges, etc).
 
Are they better for building networks ? Maybe in the law, but has the rest of Ireland not moved on.

I’ve been working in technology for 30 years, I have never experienced everyone caring what school you went to .
I didn’t go to a fee paying school but I know loads of people who did and it did not make one difference to their career .

Of course, the schools and alumni love to tell you that as it’s one of their selling points

Yes, you're probably right about law: two-thirds of Irish supreme court judges went to private schools.

I think in medicine too. In one hospital I was the only one of 13 doctors in my department who had gone to a public school. Even more eye-opening, 7 of those 12 colleagues had attended 1 particular Dublin private school and all had at least 1 consultant parent.

Only 1 of my friends is sending her kids to private school and that's at the insistence of her own parents who are multimillionaires and happy to cover the cost.

The home environment is key, but there is also a lot to said for an environment where there’s probably greater unity of purpose (i.e. success) and greater alignment towards that success. Plus students typically get to do better and more broader things outside of school (e.g. trips, exchanges, etc).

I think you're right about home environment - kids who have good home support will tend to do well regardless.

Are the trips and exchanges included in the fees or is that an extra charge?
 
When you look at things like judges, it may also have been less that they went to fee paying secondry schools and more that their parents could afford to send them to University when for a lot of others, if they got lucky, got the safe pensionable job in the bank or civil service and if not, they got the boat.

My parents left school at 14, I was lucky in that I was considered clever and they saw the advantage of an education but the same could not be said for a lot of my primary and secondary classmates whose parents had a similer background
 
Yes, you're probably right about law: two-thirds of Irish supreme court judges went to private schools.

I think in medicine too. In one hospital I was the only one of 13 doctors in my department who had gone to a public school. Even more eye-opening, 7 of those 12 colleagues had attended 1 particular Dublin private school and all had at least 1 consultant parent.

Only 1 of my friends is sending her kids to private school and that's at the insistence of her own parents who are multimillionaires and happy to cover the cost.



I think you're right about home environment - kids who have good home support will tend to do well regardless.

Are the trips and exchanges included in the fees or is that an extra charge?
Extra charges.
 
On the judges piece, I did read somewhere that given their age, most of them could only have gone to a fee paying school as there were no non fee paying secondary schools until 1967 - which is not that long ago in reality. And as it takes time to build up a family history with education, for the first few years of free fees some children didn't attend as there was a requirement for them to begin work to support the family. It takes some planning to be able to forgo that potential income in a time when a lot of families relied on the older siblings supporting younger ones.

And on the doctors, and many other professions, is it nature v nurture, if your parent has certain skills and attributes that enabled them to work in a certain profession, then possibly you inherit those as well? And not necessarily only the education piece of the puzzle.

And in my really poor school we still had trips - retreats, foreign tours, plenty of TY activities. So this is not just available to fee paying schools. Remember the amount of kids on ski trips in Feb 2020? Now I had to work a part time job to fund mine (and tbh I will expect my kids to do the same) but they were still available.
 
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