Advice on Wooden Windows

B

BMD

Registered User
Messages
133
Hi,

I am in the middle of a new build and I need to make a decision on wooden windows. I definitely want wood as I don't like the look of PVC or Aluclad.

I have quotes from a number of suppliers for both double and triple glazed. These include the following;

High End: Nordan, Carlson, Harmon Vindeur, Rationel and Ecoglaze,
Middle Range: Roe window systems
Low End: Senator and Munster

I'm not convinced about senator so I have ruled them out but the cost difference between munster and those at the high end is too big to ignore, given the current economic situation.

Has anyone advice on who I should or shouldn't go with.

Also, some of these companies guarantees are dependent on having the outside of the windows painted (not nordan). I want to maintain the wood look outside.

Finally, is there any point in going for a triple glazed window (whole u value of 1.1) as opposed to a double glazed window (whole u value of 1.2)?

Any help would be appreciated
 
You are required by law to build compliantly overall, not merely to choose between the lesser of two evils, so this is bigger than the window choice.
You will be completing in 2011 but in 2013 the standard to complete to will be Carbon Neutral, not the current standard and you would do well to bear thsi in mind.
You should have the specification for the windows from your architect or BER assessor - from whom you should obtain a cert for around €90 or so when the building is completed and file it safely away.

Let's assume you want to stick to the current standard.

Assuming the windows comply with the required specification you're balancing longevity against initial costs and costs in use.
This is a necessary triangle to make, because poor initial specification will lead to monies lost every year for the life of the building.
Also failing to build to carbon neutral standard now will put your house at a market disadvantage when you do come to sell it, eventually.

However if you intend to invest now and reap the rewards in lower running costs later, then you should consider building to carbon neutral or carbon plus standards now.

Hopefully some reader here will share their experiences of all the window types you mention so you can make an informed decision.
Beware of first time posters giving a glowing representation of one of the products - we have seen salespeople on AAM before.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Thanks ONQ,

I will be meeting all the required standards but obviously some products are better than others.

Can you elaborate on the carbon neutral standards?
 
Europe will be reaching for Carbon Neutral by 2018.
Our evironment minister has decided that we need to be five years ahead of Brussels on Carbon Neutral Buildings.

This would be difficult enough to acheive in a country where builders were in work and well up to speed on 2010 standards.
Some builders are still struggling to understand 2002 standards and the industry has contracted by 75%.

In general green agendas front load pain, just like the current budget - you pay more now for houses that will costs less to run over theri lifespan.
Some general information.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/builders-told-all-homes-must--be-carbon-neutral-by-2013-1438627.html

BMD, I have inferred some things from your question.
I doubt you have had much priofessional advicve - you should not be building a house piecemeal.
You should have a comprehensive set of drawings and specifications that are balanced in relation to all matters of compliace regarding the building regulations currently in force.

There are huge benefits and savings to be made if you design the house properly.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
BMD,
While i dont wish to get into recommending one window supplied over the other, I would say the following:
munster joinery are generally dependable in terms of lead times and quality of product. They are not the most beautiful or well designed units, but may well be the best bet in terms of the 'standard' end of the market.
I have also recently specified nordan triple glazed windows (passive standard) and the windows and (quite large) doors are beautifully made, and while i did have a run in with the fitters, the matter was cleared up reasonably well.
in terms of the brand you choose, ask to visit a house which has them fitted, there is nothing like seeing and feeling the product in place before making your choice.

I have no ties to any window supplier.

As for double v triple glazing, one thing to consider (and there are many) is that if you are installing large windows/glazed doors, and hope to have a seating or dining area beside them, triple glazed units will have a considerably higher internal surface temperature than double glazed, thus avoiding the common 'shiver' effect which can become evident after sitting beside a large area of glazing on a cold evening.

onq
Im not sure of the value of a BER cert which has been prepared for €90? A properly considered one for even a small house should take three to five hours to prepare. A lot of the BER certs which I have seen in the past year should sadly only be used to light the fire.
 
Agreed 3BS, but those prices are available at the moment and leading the OP towards that service may result in them seeing the value for it and perhaps paying a bit more for some detailed advice. The problem as I see it with self-builders is that they can fail to appreciate the complexity of designing houses and place their trust in suppliers of components, not even tradesmen, with foreseeable unfortunate results.

Good to have you back commenting BTW, haven't seen you in a while.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
ONQ...actually I have very good professional advice and a very detailed spec. It's still very important however to try and research everything that goes into your house as even experts can be wrong (just look at the banking and medical industries for evidence of this)

3BS, thank you for your advice re munster and nordan. The price difference between munster for 3G and nordan for 2G is ~€7,000, while the price difference between munster 3G and nordan 3G is ~€11,000

Munster's 3G has whole unit U value of 1.1
Nordan's 2G is 1.2, whilst their 3G is 0.9

Based on these details would you have any further advice...apart from the look of the windows is there anything else that warrants such a price difference?

I will go and look at the windows as you have recommended. Thanks
 
Hi BMD,
We spent a lot of time earlier this year looking around at windows and were in the same position of yourselves wanting wooden windows and "nearly" did a deal with Nordan. However the two big "cons" with wooden windows turned us off - the cost and secondly, the maintenance required on them - it's well and good when we are in our thirties climbing ladders to do maintenance but not so sure abot that when we are in our sixties!!
In the end we went with Bonmahon Joinery in Waterford - sash windows with a cream woodgrain effect inside and outside - they look fantastic and briliant on heat retention!
 
BMD
I dont have any further guidance than just to look at the windows in place in a house and make your judgement from there.

Regarding durability, I replaced the wooden windows in my own house last year, they were put in in 1959 and the frames were still perfect - the single glazing was getting a bit problematic though! Wooden windows require maintenance and repainting every 5-7 years on average, depending on exposure. It is not always reasonable to expect pvc windows to last for ever without mantainence, and trying to get a replacement hinge or fitting for say a 10 year old pvc window can be difficult.
 
There is a massive difference in the quality of windows out there. If I can help, a few things to look out for when comparing prices.

Most people look at the U-value and think thats a key indicator of performance and base decisions on this.

Some points will apply to PVC windows specifically as opposed to wood or alu-clad.

Security:

  • Look for heavy duty hinges
  • Look for interlocking grab tabs on the hinge side - to prevent vents being forced
  • Look for multi point locking - shoot bolts top & bottom and minimum 4 point mushroom locks which are opposed to each other
  • Look for a two stage lock position on the opening for night ventilation.

Frame:

  • PVC frames should be reinforced
  • reinforcing steel should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging
  • look for all stainless steel fittings; hinges, locks, guide bars, restrictor etc.
  • minimum mild steel with marine type coating
  • frame fixings should be high tensile steel.
  • air tight foam should be flexible to move with the frame / building. Rigid foam will compress and create air gaps (tiny ones) which lead to leaks.
  • gaskets should be welded / glued to the frame. With PVC they should be welded to a hot frame during the extrusion process. Do not accept gaskets that have been inserted by a bored technician on a production line!
Glass:

  • double glazed will be argon filled
  • triple glazed will be krypton filled. All new windows should be triple glazed. Spend the money now for the future saving.
  • spacing bars should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging.
  • look for low iron (low FE) glass on outer panes - high iron content prevents solar radiation from heating the interior air
  • look for low emmissive glass (low-E) to internal panes to keep the heat gained by ocnvection within the room.
Personally I would go with timber over any other type simply for the beauty of the product.

PVC is great for ease of maintenance. WIth PVC get high calcium and zinc content PVC, do not get cheap recycled PVC this will discolour!

There are more points, I'll post them later.
 
I'm interested to see that triple glazed should be krypton filled...every quote I have got for 3G is with argon....

I see that Dermot Bannon fella on RTE's room to improve always uses munster....would anyone consider this a good sign of their quality?
 
BMD, you clearly care about quality so I would strike Munster off the list and take them out of the running. They're bog standard PVC windows are prob fine but my parents got their teak windows into new house 5 years ago and I think even they know it was a big mistake, the quality of the timber is very poor, need much much more maintenance than the old teak windows in their old house, the handles are the cheapest and nastiest looking things you ever saw - maybe there are other options for handles but if it was my business I would not even have these yokes in stock.

Sorry I can't be much help on what to go for, myself I went with timber-colured PVC sash sliders from senator and I love them, I wanted maintenance-free. I've seen some beautiful timber windows from rationel.
 
Thanks Hippy....I'd like to go with Nordan but the price is a bit prohibitive. I'm attracted by their 10 year guarantee and also the fact that I am building on the side of a mountain

Based on your feedback and some lingering doubts I am coming close to ruling out Munster

Ecoglaze are the most competitive of the high end so I'll try and find out more about them
 
BMD Krypton is the better gas but does not perform as well in the larger spaces in double glazing.

I would concur with your conclusions. Run from the one and go with the other. Especially when the guarantee is not fragmented ie dependent on one or the other of a number of factors.
 
Sconhome,

Thank you very much for your useful comments. I was speaking with a very reliable and experienced trademan over the weekend and he was able to give me a lot of reassurance wrt MJ (he said that their product/service in the last two years is very different to that provided during the boom) so I may not rule them out entirely.

I will have a look at the costs and then make a decision. I would like to have the nordan windows but also need to keep the mortgage down.

ONQ, threebedsemi, hippy and sconhome, thank you all for your help on this one...much appreciated

I hope I make the right choice
 
I would agree that there have been massive improvements, there was no option as they have to compete to stay in the market. There still remains a massive difference in quality though.

Refer to the points above and compare on the qualities of the windows themselves. Price will be a big temptation, but quality will stand the test of time, especially with guarantees.

Best of luck.
 
Hi I know that this post is just about ended but for the benefit of BMD we got a quote from Careyglass for wooden frames and the quote was even more competitive than MJ. I have not looked into the quality as of yet but will do so using Sconhome's pointers above. I think with Aroko you dont have to paint but can oil them instead. Also you can get the frames so that they can effectively turn inside out to maintain the outside so it seems that you dont have to think in terms of ladders. that was a worry for us as well.
 
Sconhome said:
There is a massive difference in the quality of windows out there. If I can help, a few things to look out for when comparing prices.

Most people look at the U-value and think thats a key indicator of performance and base decisions on this.

Some points will apply to PVC windows specifically as opposed to wood or alu-clad.

Security:

  • Look for heavy duty hinges
  • Look for interlocking grab tabs on the hinge side - to prevent vents being forced
  • Look for multi point locking - shoot bolts top & bottom and minimum 4 point mushroom locks which are opposed to each other
  • Look for a two stage lock position on the opening for night ventilation.

Frame:

  • PVC frames should be reinforced
  • reinforcing steel should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging
  • look for all stainless steel fittings; hinges, locks, guide bars, restrictor etc.
  • minimum mild steel with marine type coating
  • frame fixings should be high tensile steel.
  • air tight foam should be flexible to move with the frame / building. Rigid foam will compress and create air gaps (tiny ones) which lead to leaks.
  • gaskets should be welded / glued to the frame. With PVC they should be welded to a hot frame during the extrusion process. Do not accept gaskets that have been inserted by a bored technician on a production line!
Glass:

  • double glazed will be argon filled
  • triple glazed will be krypton filled. All new windows should be triple glazed. Spend the money now for the future saving.
  • spacing bars should be insulated to prevent thermal bridging.
  • look for low iron (low FE) glass on outer panes - high iron content prevents solar radiation from heating the interior air
  • look for low emmissive glass (low-E) to internal panes to keep the heat gained by ocnvection within the room.
Personally I would go with timber over any other type simply for the beauty of the product.

PVC is great for ease of maintenance. WIth PVC get high calcium and zinc content PVC, do not get cheap recycled PVC this will discolour!

There are more points, I'll post them later.
Click to expand...

Great post Sconhome.

Are you going to post more points like this or is the the lot?

ONQ.
 
BMD said:
Sconhome,

Thank you very much for your useful comments. I was speaking with a very reliable and experienced trademan over the weekend and he was able to give me a lot of reassurance wrt MJ (he said that their product/service in the last two years is very different to that provided during the boom) so I may not rule them out entirely.

I will have a look at the costs and then make a decision. I would like to have the nordan windows but also need to keep the mortgage down.

ONQ, threebedsemi, hippy and sconhome, thank you all for your help on this one...much appreciated

I hope I make the right choice
Click to expand...

Yeah I saw some MJ stuff recently and it seemed okay.

Hard to tell unless you can experience it in use though.

ONQ.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top