A vote for privatisation

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Firefly

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The recent LUAS strike and pay increases serve as an example, IMO, why transport should be privatised. The workers went on strike. They were looking for higher pay. The company gave the poor line. Eventually they met somewhere in the middle and both parties were happy to (pardon the pun) drive on. The company are slightly worse off financially, and the workers are slightly better off. All pretty normal industrial relations stuff. The major benefit though is that you&I taxpayer are no more worse off. Not by a penny. The ink isn't even dry on the agreements when CIE drivers are looking for their "Where's my NAMA" payrise - upto 25% too thank you very much

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...llowing-proposed-luas-pay-hikes-34552923.html

Assuming these workers go on strike and the same game of cat&mouse plays out, the upshot is that You&I taxpayer will, yet again, have to put our hand in our pockets and divert more much-needed tax money to the few. Isn't it really time we started thinking about privatising public transport?
 
Firefly .

Would privatising really give us better services?
Would privatising just dumb down wages?
Maybe CIE drivers are worth 25% more ? I don,t know. From my limited knowledge they are not on huge incomes.

Remember when Banks were in Private hands?, we Mr Taxpayer bailed them out ? and they arn,t exactly poster boys on being Private= good.?

It ain,t simple !
 
Gerry Canning said:
Firefly .

Would privatising really give us better services?
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Perhaps certain routes or groups of routes could be put out for tender. Say, 2 busy routes and 1 quiet route. An SLA is devised, such as frequency of buses along the 3 routes at current numbers. The contracts could run for only 2 or 3 years, when they would be tendered out again. Something like that would safeguard services.


Gerry Canning said:
Would privatising just dumb down wages?
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Who knows and really who cares? Do you feel sorry for taxi drivers when you can now so easily get a taxi home? Bus drivers would be paid, like the vast majority of people, according to market rates and their competence.

Gerry Canning said:
Maybe CIE drivers are worth 25% more ? I don,t know. From my limited knowledge they are not on huge incomes.
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I don't know either. But I do know that their company is bankrupt, surviving on handouts after handouts. Why not save all that money and divert it to somewhere where it can make a difference AND get extra money in every year from the contracts agreed with private operators?

Gerry Canning said:
Remember when Banks were in Private hands?, we Mr Taxpayer bailed them out ? and they arn,t exactly poster boys on being Private= good.?
It ain,t simple !
Click to expand...

But we ARE bailing our CIE every year! Also, it's really not fair to equate the bank with transport. We didn't so much as bail out the banks but bailed out each other's deposits.
 
The NTA are in the process of tendering for privitisation of all Bus Eireann routes in Waterford City and around 10% of Dublin Bus routes. Tenders are expected to go out later in the year.

There are elements of public transport already privitised, for example there are many Commercial Bus Operators (CBO) running buses in and out of Dublin. JJ Kavenaghs in Kilkenny are a classic example and I know many people on both routes who would think of the CBO before Bus Eireann due to better timetables and services.

However the problem with privitisation is that Public Transport also has a social element and it is questionable if many routes would actually be profitable were it not for some element of direct or indirect Govt subventions. That doesn't mean that there isn't a need for such transport, just that it may not be commercially viable
 
From the article:

They are also seeking an increase in line with “industry norms” which they have noted as between 8 and 18pc – the amount offered to Luas staff following strike action and union negotiations.

I wonder would they be willing to accept the "industry norm" of a defined contribution pension also?
 
thedaddyman said:
However the problem with privitisation is that Public Transport also has a social element and it is questionable if many routes would actually be profitable were it not for some element of direct or indirect Govt subventions. That doesn't mean that there isn't a need for such transport, just that it may not be commercially viable
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Hi,

Yes that old chestnut is always brought out. How about grouping profitable & non-profitable routes together as I outlined above and tendering them as a group for a shortish period?
 
Gerry Canning said:
Would privatising just dumb down wages?
Maybe CIE drivers are worth 25% more ? I don,t know. From my limited knowledge they are not on huge incomes.
Click to expand...
When enough suitably skilled people are available and willing to fill the required number of jobs then wages are high enough. If there are not enough suitable people willing to do the job then wages are too low. The options there are make the job more attractive by improving the working environment or increasing wages or T's&C's or a combination of those three things.

Wages should always be set by the market and precious state money should never be spent when there is no need to spend it therefore as long as wages are not creating a labour shortage pay increases should not be given. If we have more money to spend then spend it on health and educational infrastructure which enable structural and process improvements.
 
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It would be lovely if genuine market forces divided up wages , that rarely happens .
Most times, senior people take an inordinate share of the spoils .
Sometimes the employees take an inordinate share of the spoils.
If it was left to supply and demand we would end up at a lot of jobs being day work only , no security/tenure etc..
 
Firefly , just to point out that there is no agreement in place between Transdev & Luas employees .
There is a set of proposals that may lead to an agreement but these have yet to be voted on by Union members.
 
Firefly said:
Hi,

Yes that old chestnut is always brought out. How about grouping profitable & non-profitable routes together as I outlined above and tendering them as a group for a shortish period?
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NTA are not tendering very profitable routes in Dublin, they are middling routes, ones that are busy but not that busy. My understanding is that the agreement will be similar to that for Luas, namely a fixed fee coupled with additional payments if certain targets are met. New Operators will not get the fare income from the route

Not sure you could describe it as true privitisation, more of a sub-contracting
 
Gerry Canning said:
Is there not an ongoing issue with Zero hours contracts.
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IBEC & ISME are opposed to the introduction of legislation to prevent Zero hours contracts.
Hopefully political canvassing by ICTU will ensure that such legislation will be passed , in fairness to the FG/Labour Government they seemed proactive in this regard prompted perhaps by the actions of Dunnes stores & their Union.
 
Deiseblue said:
IBEC & ISME are opposed to the introduction of legislation to prevent Zero hours contracts.
Hopefully political canvassing by ICTU will ensure that such legislation will be passed , in fairness to the FG/Labour Government they seemed proactive in this regard prompted perhaps by the actions of Dunnes stores & their Union.
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I'm all for flexibility in the workplace (even at home - you should see me with those resistance bands) but this IMO is a step too far. Any manager worth their salt should be able to determine their resourcing needs a month out. By all means hire extra people if needed and if too many people are hired then suck it up and get them doing something else and update your planning forecasts for the next time.
 
Firefly said:
Hi,

Yes that old chestnut is always brought out. How about grouping profitable & non-profitable routes together as I outlined above and tendering them as a group for a shortish period?
Click to expand...

Because you'd quickly run out of profitable routes - overall the system is (and likely to remain) loss making.

Just out of interest, can anyone point to a privatised system that actually works well?
 
newtothis said:
Because you'd quickly run out of profitable routes - overall the system is (and likely to remain) loss making.
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But do we really know that? Maybe it's just that the incumbent operators, getting an annual dig-out from the taxpayers, are just not upto the job?

newtothis said:
Just out of interest, can anyone point to a privatised system that actually works well?
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There are a myriad of private operators up and down the country providing services to bring children to school every morning, often in remote areas. These all seem to work well. The private operators such as Mortons seem to do pretty well. Just because the current system is a loss-making disaster doesn't mean that nobody else could do it better. I believe the transport infrastructure should be in state hands.

Personally, I think CIE and Dublin Bus etc should remain, they should just operate in a competitive market. Let's look at other services, previously offered only by the state which are now operating in a competitive market:

Air Travel. Remember those 500 pounds flights to London by Aer Lingus? We now have much better destination options at a fraction of the price. Aer Lingus themselves have been transformed into a nimble operator compared to the days of old

Telecoms. Remember ringing Telecom Eireann back in the day and the lovely person on the other end of the phone? Remember those charges? Look at Eir today - a much more competitive operator (and it needs to be). Can you imagine the offerings in the mobile / smartphone market if Eir were the only operator?

Health Care. Remember when the good ole VHI were the only option? Look at the choice out there now: LAYA, Glo, Aviva etc - it's fantastic - different options depending on how much you want to spend

Energy Sector. We now have the incumbents (ESB & Bord Gais) but also others such as Energia, Airtricity, Pinergy all chomping at the bit offering different solutions & products to customers.

In any of the above examples would anyone really want to go back to the way it was?

Why should transport be any different?
 
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