A new treaty in Europe

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Ancutza

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Could somebody in the know, governmental or otherwise, please explain in point form exactly what they signed up to at the recent meeting of the EU heads of state?

Did our representatives ask for a reduction in the interest rate applied to our bail-out as a precondition of us supporting a new treaty? If so what, specifically, was the response? Bear in mind that Greece got one. Enda told us all on his TV address that we're not to blame so I suppose he will explain that to Nicholas S. and Angie and negotiate better rates.

Did our representatives sign-up to a transaction tax? I suppose that would be of interest to anyone in the IFSC?

Enda is a clown. End of. Send him back to school.

We need a statesman at the moment. It doesn't matter a tinkers curse what party he comes out.
 
Ancutza said:
Could somebody in the know, governmental or otherwise, please explain in point form exactly what they signed up to at the recent meeting of the EU heads of state?
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I doubt they know themselves what they signed up to; the agreement is whatever Merkozy says it is.
 
michaelm said:
I doubt they know themselves what they signed up to; the agreement is whatever Merkozy says it is.
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And that, I would suggest, is one of the reasons why David Cameron refused to go along.

Sarkozy etc should also be reminded that this would not be the first time that the UK stood alone against German takeovers of Europe.
 
Sarkozy etc should also be reminded that this would not be the first time that the UK stood alone against German takeovers of Europe.
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If you just stand back and think about what is going on in Europe at the moment then it is very interesting indeed. Why has France thrown her hat in the ring with a neighbour who so recently has done her so much harm? And more than once indeed!

I don't like Merkel at all but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the germans in that they will end-up being demonised for the 3rd time in less than 100 years and this time only for being parsimonious whilst everyone elses plastic burnt a hole in their pocket!

A much stronger Europe would be one which was influenced by an English/German partnership and I use the word 'partnership' very loosely. Better to describe the relationship as each being a foil to the others expansionism.

Sarkozy is an irritating sideshow. All mouth (and plenty of it!) and no trousers as the english would say.
 
BillK said:
And that, I would suggest, is one of the reasons why David Cameron refused to go along.

Sarkozy etc should also be reminded that this would not be the first time that the UK stood alone against German takeovers of Europe.
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Ah yes, the old bulldog spirit. Down with Johnny Foreigner!
 
Ah yes, the old bulldog spirit. Down with Johnny Foreigner!
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I understand where you're coming from but without them you'd now be speaking german as your first language with the obligatory option of taking french for your Abitur.
 
Ancutza said:
I understand where you're coming from but without them you'd now be speaking german as your first language with the obligatory option of taking french for your Abitur.
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That's not true; we'd be speaking Russian (D-Day etc was to stop the Russians, Germany was defeated by late 1943).
 
Purple said:
That's not true; we'd be speaking Russian (D-Day etc was to stop the Russians, Germany was defeated by late 1943).
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Do you have a link for this as it goes against conventional wisdom and I'd love to read more on this?
 
Purple said:
That's not true; we'd be speaking Russian (D-Day etc was to stop the Russians, Germany was defeated by late 1943).
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In 1944 my father and his comrades were trying (and eventually succeeding) to throw the Germans out of the monastery at Monte Cassino and thus open the road to Rome.
 
By June 1944 the Soviets had over 2.3 million men facing the 20 or so under strength German divisions. The Germans were outnumbered 7:1 in aircraft and 10:1 in tanks (the Russian T34 was the best tank of the Second World War). The Soviet industrial machine had been dismantled and re-assembled east of the Urals and was now working at near maximum output. There was no way that the Germans were ever going to stop them.
At the same time the British, American, Free French and Polish, ANZAC and Canadians troops faced 6 divisions in northern France. It was a side show. That’s not to take away from the bravery and accomplishments of the Allied troops in Normandy but the Germans were beaten (they just didn’t know it yet). It was about stopping the Russians reaching Western Europe because Britain and America (Churchill in particular) knew they’d never give back what they’d taken. He knew Stalin was as bad as Hitler.

For the record when the British say it was their finest hour I agree 100%. They stood alone for over a year against pure evil.
As for D-Day; if it wasn't for those brave men we'd have been enslaved by Communism instead of National Socialism. Two sides of the same coin.
 
That was then and this is now. I think the germans have sort of accidentally 'captured' Europe this week and I'm not convinced that that is what they wanted at all, at all.
 
Purple said:
By June 1944 the Soviets had over 2.3 million men facing the 20 or so under strength German divisions. The Germans were outnumbered 7:1 in aircraft and 10:1 in tanks (the Russian T34 was the best tank of the Second World War). The Soviet industrial machine had been dismantled and re-assembled east of the Urals and was now working at near maximum output. There was no way that the Germans were ever going to stop them.
At the same time the British, American, Free French and Polish, ANZAC and Canadians troops faced 6 divisions in northern France. It was a side show. That’s not to take away from the bravery and accomplishments of the Allied troops in Normandy but the Germans were beaten (they just didn’t know it yet). It was about stopping the Russians reaching Western Europe because Britain and America (Churchill in particular) knew they’d never give back what they’d taken. He knew Stalin was as bad as Hitler.

For the record when the British say it was their finest hour I agree 100%. They stood alone for over a year against pure evil.
As for D-Day; if it wasn't for those brave men we'd have been enslaved by Communism instead of National Socialism. Two sides of the same coin.
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Innnteresting. Must read more!
 
Ancutza said:
That was then and this is now. I think the germans have sort of accidentally 'captured' Europe this week and I'm not convinced that that is what they wanted at all, at all.
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I agree. I think Merkel is being short sighted and playing to her electorate but I don't for a minute think they want to control Europe.
 
I agree. I think Merkel is being short sighted and playing to her electorate but I don't for a minute think they want to control Europe
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.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I think that deep, deep down in their souls the germans would definitely like to control Europe. Even the world if that was ok with everyone else. It's in their nature. They are an expansionist nation. That doesn't make them bad or dangerous. It's just the nature of the beast. I'm saying that as someone who has been through their public (read private) secondary system if only for 18 months and spent hours shooting basketball hoops over countless long weekends and, obviously, discussing with the german kids how they viewed themselves and their station in the world.

Likewise the British are an expansionist nation whom, through their maintenance of the commowealth are, shall we say, a little more 'rounded'. They haven't really got to prove anything to anyone having handed the germans their backsides twice in the last 100 years.

Germany is frustrated on a number of fronts. It wants to be in control but, for the remainder of my generation ( in our 40's) it will be too 'embarrassed' (if that's the right word) by it's recent history to be more assertive. In fact there was an interview in the english 'Independent on Sunday', was it 2 Sundays ago?, with one of their senior politicians (can't remember who it was and too lazy to look back through my history), who made exactly that point.

It's the british and the germans who will decide the direction of Europe, make no mistake. []
 
Purple said:
By June 1944 the Soviets had over 2.3 million men facing the 20 or so under strength German divisions. The Germans were outnumbered 7:1 in aircraft and 10:1 in tanks (the Russian T34 was the best tank of the Second World War). The Soviet industrial machine had been dismantled and re-assembled east of the Urals and was now working at near maximum output. There was no way that the Germans were ever going to stop them.
At the same time the British, American, Free French and Polish, ANZAC and Canadians troops faced 6 divisions in northern France. It was a side show. That’s not to take away from the bravery and accomplishments of the Allied troops in Normandy but the Germans were beaten (they just didn’t know it yet). It was about stopping the Russians reaching Western Europe because Britain and America (Churchill in particular) knew they’d never give back what they’d taken. He knew Stalin was as bad as Hitler.

For the record when the British say it was their finest hour I agree 100%. They stood alone for over a year against pure evil.
As for D-Day; if it wasn't for those brave men we'd have been enslaved by Communism instead of National Socialism. Two sides of the same coin.
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One of the things Stalin was looking for at the WWII conference in Tehran in late Nov, early Dec 1943 was a committment from the western allies that they would open up a second front. In fact he was looking for it earlier but he got the commitment at that conference.
Roosevelt gave Stalin that commitment at the conference and it was one of the things he was happiest about going back to Russia.

While I suspect the western allies had the idea of spoiling the soviet plans of expansion in their minds when D-Day was planned it was a very poor second to defeating Nazi Germany. As momentum gathered after the allies broke out of Normandy the race was certainly on between the allies and the soviets to reach Berlin first and gain as much territory as possible.
Indeed there was an internal battle between Patton and Monty to see who could gain more territory but that was more an ego thing rather than any strife between the USA and the UK.

But the fact remains that Stalin was putting a lot of pressure on Roosevelt and Churchill to open up a second front.
 
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