It's a rip-off!

B

bankrupt

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As the previous thread on the topic has been deleted and there has been a long-running controversy over the phrase "rip-off" on AAM I thought it might be a good idea to post a quick summary.

Many amongst us use the phrase "rip-off" to mean over-priced, excessively expensive in certain contexts.

Some have insisted that a "rip-off" must be a deceitful or fraudulent act, but now agree that this position is incorrect. The simple reason for this is that the phrase is itself slang and does not have a single fixed meaning. ClubMan illustrated this point well by saying that he now defines "rip-off" as a winged golden unicorn, of course if he should somehow manage to get this adopted by enough people then the term will share this meaning. Slang terms, by definition, do not have a fixed definition.

Some examples:

If a pub were to charge €20 for a pint (while also making clear that this would be the charge) it could be deemed to be a "rip-off." In this instance there is no suggestion of fraud or deceit. Clearly it is not possible to exactly define what constitutes a "rip-off" with this definition, context is everything. C'est la vie; it is similarly difficult to exactly define "value," and "expensive."

If a pub were to advertise pints for €5 and charge €6 this would also be a rip-off but clearly this is a fraudulent transaction.

This debate has raged back and forth for a couple of years now but we finally appear to have consensus. The debate on whether or not Ireland has a "rip-off" culture is a separate discussion that will no doubt continue ad infinitum.

Happy Christmas (and yes, it is a slow day at the office.)
 
bankrupt said:
Happy Christmas (and yes, it is a slow day at the office.)
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You mean you're ripping your employer off?
ClubMan illustrated this point well by saying that he now defines "rip-off" as a winged golden unicorn
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I never said a winged or golden unicorn. Just a standard non flight enabled white one. I think you're getting confused with Pegasus.
 
bankrupt said:
Many amongst us use the phrase "rip-off" to mean over-priced, excessively expensive in certain contexts.
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This is indeed a meaningful use of the phrase. Unfortunately some people still don't understand both the intricacies of the modern english language and the context of the brash new money-rich Irish culture. This context is where a lot of this blame is directed..and hence the phrase.

Ultimately...to argue with one person the meaning of a particular phrase is understandable...but to argue with many people the use of the same phrase is not. Once many people take a phrase on it evolves around that particular 'context'. This is the basis of most language evolution.

For instance I personally take great insult where people say...just choose not to but there and shop elsewhere! This is fine if you're standing in Brown Thomas where a pair of socks might cost €40...but the same does not apply where you're standing in a convenience store and to shop around might mean to travel several miles to a competitor. This is where (unfortunately) the free market often fails us. It also harps back to the 'nouveau riche' as mentioned earlier. Shops expect that this new class of Irish people will pay whatever for the goods or service on offer...often in the knowledge that to shop elsewhere is just too much hassle.

This to me is where the argument against the modern term "rip-off" falls over. If you don't get this...then you just don't get it!
 
Gabriel said:
For instance I personally take great insult where people say...just choose not to but there and shop elsewhere!
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Why on earth do you take great insult when somebody recommends that you shop around?
Shops expect that this new class of Irish people will pay whatever for the goods or service on offer...often in the knowledge that to shop elsewhere is just too much hassle.
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And sometimes they do. So what? They may be paying a premium for convenience but it's the retailer's prerogative to charge what they like and the consumer's to decide what price they are willing to pay in any given situation.
This to me is where the argument against the modern term "rip-off" falls over. If you don't get this...then you just don't get it!
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I don't get it. If a shop wants to charge €40 for socks (or whatever) then that's their business. Personally I would not pay it but somebody else might. It's not a rip off unless they advertise them at, say, €4 but surreptitiously try to charge €40 at the till.
 
ClubMan said:
Often because they consider that misuse of the term in such situations dilutes it and gets in the way of identifying and tackling real rip-offs.
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Of course, now we are all in agreement that a rip-off that is merely expensive is also a "real" rip-off. ;)
 
ClubMan said:
I don't get it. If a shop wants to charge €40 for socks (or whatever) then that's their business. Personally I would not pay it but somebody else might. It's not a rip off unless they advertise them at, say, €4 but surreptitiously try to charge €40 at the till.
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Oh ClubMan! It is a rip-off in the other sense of the word! I thought we had agreed this?

Let's of course assume that €40 would be extremely poor value for this pair of socks.
 
A few further musings on the topic.

How do others use this term? I find that I might say, for example, "that place is a rip-off" to mean it is expensive. However, if I say "that guy/place ripped me off" there is an implication of fraud. I've also been checking with other people to see how they use it, out of 6 people, all shared this definition, all having grown up on the Southside of Dublin. Is there a North/South Dublin divide? Can anyone from outside of the capital comment?
 
If I dont want to buy my 7yo daughter something I tell her its a "rip-off" and she accepts this without question. Somehow I dont this tactic is going to work for much longer!
 
ClubMan said:
More than one person has challenged what they consider the mistaken attributation of the term rip-off to straightforward cases of high prices.
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Sure. Even two is more than one. But my perception from browsing this site is that many, many more people accept the term rip-off has now acquired multiple meanings, one of which is an unreasonably high price, perhaps with an element of taking advantage of people, where going elsewhere would be inconvenient.

We could run a poll.

Ripoff:

A - Has one acceptable meaning only, i.e. someone tries to charge a higher price than advertised/stated for an item. A high price can not be a ripoff unless the item in question has been fraudulently advertised at a lower price.

B - Has two meanings only, i.e. a fraudulent price (as in A above), and a standard, non-flight-enabled, white unicorn.

C - Has multiple meanings, including an unreasonably high price.

D - Other (please specify).

My vote goes to:
C - Has multiple meanings, including an unreasonably high price.

Anyone else?

(Remember, you don't have to vote for B just because you like unicorns! They could fit into definition C too.)
 
Kids were probably the catalyst which made me more aware of my finances and costs of goods and services.
Once there is transparency of the goods and/or service to be delivered along with a defined price and choice of supply, I can't consider it a rip-off.

Prior to this, I would purchase goods and/or services without clear detail and if I something was below my expectation or above the price I guessed it would be, I would also classify it as a rip-off.

I now categorise "rip-off" as being mis-information on description, price, goods or service and my perceived high costs of something being in the category of "bad-value".

Now I barely ever have to classify something as a rip-off, and with help of AAM contributors, rarely ending up getting bad-value!
 
Bankrupt said

Some have insisted that a "rip-off" must be a deceitful or fraudulent act, but now agree that this position is incorrect.
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It is still very clear to me that those of us who want to communicate with precision, those of us who want to be understood, need to have a word which implies fraud. To me, "rip-off" is that word. If others choose to use it to mean expensive or to mean a unicorn, then they are abusing the word.

If the begrudgers want to do down all Irish business by describing it as a rip-off, then they abusing the word with intent. If their high profile media campaign gets the majority of people to believe in a new meaning, I still think that we should fight to keep the original meaning.

I assume that everyone agrees that the expression "rip-off" includes the meaning of fraud. Fraud is a crime. It is morally reprehensible. So it is wrong to extend the meaning of a "criminal" word to something which does not involve fraud or crime.

If someone tells me that Pub X is a rip-off, I will assume that they have been charged more than the prices on display or that they have been intentionally short-changed and I will think less of the pub as a result. If someone tells me that Cafe en Seine manages to have people queuing up outside to pay €6 a pint, I will admire the pub for its marketing savvy.

Humpty Dumpty said something along the following lines: "A word means what I choose it to mean - no more and no less". Sometimes I think that Bankrupt and the others would be more comfortable living in Wonderland where they could use words without worrying about their meaning.

If a word has a distinct and useful meaning, particularly if it implies criminal activity, then its meaning should be confined to that use. Attempts to extend the use suggest sloppy use of English or else some underhand motive.

If people insist on extending "rip-off" to mean expensive, they should clarify that they are using this new meaning of the word. Otherwise, those of us who understand the true meaning of the word will have to ask them to clarify what they mean. This interferes with clear communication.

So why not agree in future to describe Ireland and certain shops as expensive and to describe those shops which defraud people as rip-offs? If we agree this, then we can have a more meaningful analysis of the cost of living in Ireland and why it is expensive. And the Office of Consumer Affairs will be able to identify the rip-off merchants and have them jailed.



Brendan
 
Brendan said:
It is still very clear to me that those of us who want to communicate with precision, those of us who want to be understood, need to have a word which implies fraud. To me, "rip-off" is that word. If others choose to use it to mean expensive or to mean a unicorn, then they are abusing the word.
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Hi Brendan,

You are free to insist Canute-like that "rip-off" cannot mean expensive but the fact is that its meaning has changed to include that meaning. If you need to communicate with precision this is not the term to use, "fraud" would be more appropriate. You might argue that you should never use slang if you need precision.

If someone tells me that Pub X is a rip-off, I will assume that they have been charged more than the prices on display or that they have been intentionally short-changed and I will think less of the pub as a result. If someone tells me that Cafe en Seine manages to have people queuing up outside to pay €6 a pint, I will admire the pub for its marketing savvy.
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But the person telling you this may be using the term in the other sense of the word, why insist that they mean something other than what they intend? As an analogy, if someone told you they were gay, would you insist they meant "happy?" As an exercise to the reader, what would have been meant by "gay" 100 years ago and what would have been meant last week? Further, rip-off, being slang is even more subject to this change in meaning than other words.

Humpty Dumpty said something along the following lines: "A word means what I choose it to mean - no more and no less". Sometimes I think that Bankrupt and the others would be more comfortable living in Wonderland where they could use words without worrying about their meaning.
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I am merely pointing that the meaning has changed, the language has moved on, clearly you have not. I could pick 100s of words from the dictionary that have changed meaning over the last 100 years. Your use of the Humpty-Dumpty quote shows that you have completely misunderstood the point.

I do not have some underhand intention in pointing out this simple point and it is far from "sloppy," (indeed, it is your thinking that is sloppy here). As I pointed out above the whole "rip-off" Ireland debate is an entirely separate discussion and I suspect we substantially agree that there is not a "rip-off" culture in the country.

My point is a pedantic one about the current use of language, the logic is clear, you have not disproved it.
 
How about this Brendan:

Would you accept the Oxford English Dictionary as the ultimate arbiter of language meaning?

If so, I will bet you €500 that the term "rip-off" will appear in the OED within 5 years with an additional meaning of excessively expensive or over-priced, bad-value (we would have to agree on some flexibility here as I cannot know the exact wording.) Loser to pay the money to a charity of the other's choice.

In the spirit of Christmas, I will donate €50 to a charity of your choice if you don't want to accept this bet but are prepared to acknowledge that my argument above is correct.
 
I'd have to go with C in the poll. Slang is defined by its use. A shop charging €40 for socks is expensive, but not a rip-off UNLESS you have nowhere else to buy socks, so the meaning would include unreasonable profits or profiteering. eh, think Banks until a few years ago.
 
customers might well be aware of the price of an item and still purchase. if then asked their opinion on the price they might well use the term rip off. can be referring to drinks, flights, stamp duty on houses, price of cars, etc etc. its just a general term taken to mean that customers think the items are being charged for at a premium rate. not generally taken to mean fraud. more taken to mean being taken advanage of. that's my opinion anyway.
 
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