"Pure H2O" water filtration system - fact or myth?

[cgc5483]

Originally Posted by kippy

Hi Complainer,
We checked the forms and the deposit is "non-refundable" in the small print.
Cancelled the cheque anyway and if their is any trouble about it I'll make sure that my concern about their selling methods and lack of clarify on "maintainence" are made public in one of the local papers and in writing to some consumer body. It'll be an expensive €100 for them to collect.
Thanks very much for the advice everyone. I cant believe that a company such as this has won various awards for what they do.
Kippy

If your girlfriend really wants to buy one of these systems pm me and i can give you a website that sells them for less than €300. Got one myself and they are real easy to install. It's ridiculous the money these companies are making on them and you got to love the line of they will sell it at discount of €2000 is you sign up there and then.

[Petal]

The best way to judge the quality of your water is to have it tested by a laboratory. The Dublin Public Analyst Laboratory provides such service and this webpage outlines charges involved.

[kippy]

Thanks guys for all the details and help.
I will probably get one of these units myself and get it fitted.
Regards,
Kippy

[kippy]

Does anyone know what the "trader number" is for this company?
She signed a direct debit and wants to ensure the company to not take any money from her account.
Kippy

Originally Posted by kippy

Does anyone know what the "trader number" is for this company?
She signed a direct debit and wants to ensure the company to not take any money from her account.
Kippy

Just inform your bank not to accept the DD, they should be able to cancel it.

[kippy]

The bank advised that they would need a "trader number" to cancel the DD.
Kippy

[PatB71]

Not exactly sure what "trader number" means but this website gives company details http://www.cro.ie/search/companyindexe.asp.
Hope this helps.

[centrino]

I had the same presentation recently, I was told just to test the water and would ring back in a few days to get the results. When they did they were surprised with the results and telling me that I had been one of only a few people selected to receive a gift for completing this test for them.
But they had to call to the house and give it to me. This was organised and also received a text saying that they want to test the water again and give me my free gift.
Shocked I was to have this wrinkled old <expletive deleted> from new zealand trying to sell me this product costing 2000 euros.
Because of the way this was set up there was no way in hell I would buy this from them even if it gave me eternal life.
<rant removed by moderator>

[maxiiim]

Hi, All.

Can recommend you this:

http://www.water2buy.ie/index.php?ac...od&productId=4

I live in co. Meath and we had hard water.
I’ve install it myself (easy enough) a year ago, very happy.


P.S. I don’t work for them J

[TreeTiger]

We have a system called Simply Water which was recommended to me by a friend from Galway who is a total convert.

Initially I was a bit sceptical but other half really wanted a water filter system, we got this at some trade fair for 200 euros including a replacement filter (the tap is also included), and I must say the water is actually much fresher tasting. I have tried a blind test on several people and everyone has chosen the Simply Water over the ordinary tap water.

[AnnB]

Maxiiim, could I ask does that RO kit just do the drinking water in the kitchen?

I'd need another kit in addition to it to remove limescale from the water for the whole house, I assume?
Like this?
http://www.water2buy.ie/index.php?ac...od&productId=6

Thanks.

[maxiiim]

Hi, AnnB.
Yes, RO kit does it only for kitchen (small additional tap)

To remove limescale from whole house you need to install additional kit as you quoted.
I have the RO one so far, and I’m considering of getting water softener in addition.
I would suggest – “fix” the water that you drink first. And then consider if you want to invest in WS

[MrKeane]

I bought a system in the states about a year ago. Its worked fine ever since and I need to replace the filters myself one of the days.

The list price is $299 but when you add in freight, VAT and duty etc. you will probaly get it to your door for around €300.

I am not connected to this company but we have had this with no problems for a year now and I fitted it myself.

www.freedrinkingwater.com

[MrKeane]

I think its the RO-45 we have.

[Guelder]

If anyone wants anymore info on Pure H20 check out Joe Duffy's Liveline today..

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

[zenn]

The subject of Pure H2O has been discussed at least twice on Joe Duffy >last week and in mid March because of their pressure sales tactics, high pricing and worrying aftersales.

The co-founder of Pure H2O in Galway - Joe Guthrey from Kinvara ran a well known water treatment company called Ionics which left customers high and dry after they closed down a year or so before starting up the Pure H2O business concern.

Ionics was also a byword for pressure selling, overpricing and poor aftersales. Just ask any Ionics customer.

As for Pure H2O, Joe is at it again. He is selling the Aquathin model RO filter which has a manufacturing cost of between 50 to 100 dollars, (dollars not euros!), as it is composed of nothing more elaborate than most other Asian made RO systems on the market except an added DI (de-ionising cartridge - cost about 5 dollars) and some basic flush controls and optional pump.

The system itself is low grade as it has not passed any of the industry certifications such as NSF or WQA gold seal - see NSF.com and WQA.org, which RO systems of a higher quality are rigorously tested for.

The Aquathin organisation are based in Florida, but the manufacture of the systems are from Taiwan, and Pure H2O will never release the details of the original Chinese manufacturing plant or many details of third party pumps, membranes, cartridges etc, if customers ask for these.

All parts are basic low cost Chinese made items, as is the cheap plastic lever faucet costing around 2 dollars. A 2 dollar plastic lever faucet is what customers finally end up seeing and using every day on a system that costs over 2000 euros! Most other RO systems costing 200 to 300 euros now have full chrome or ceramic designer faucets included. Just gives you an idea.

The H2O systems were first sold for a starting price of under 1400 euros three years ago when the company was based in Powers Woolen Mills in Kilcolgan, and every so often over three years the price would jump by 200 euros to 1600, 1800, 2000 and on to a full suggested price of over 2500!

The whole trick in the selling of Pure H2O systems is an office of around 30 telesales staff who call people up at random from the phone book and offer a "free" gift of chocolates, cutlery, watches, umbrellas, wine, etc and a "free water test" at no obligation to set up a call of one of about 50 unexperienced part time salesmen to get their foot in the door of unsuspecting customer's households.

The sales reps know little or nothing about water treatment or basic chemistry and are set monthly targets of around 200 to 400 euros per system sold, depending on how many systems they sell. Often they do not meet their targets and get the minimum and often leave only to be replaced by more sales novices eager to earn quick money.

Staff turnover therefore is very high, and the agressive nature also in telesales in meeting targets and the blunt responses given by most of the public, mean telesales staff also leave prematurely, hence the regular adverts for new replacements every week in the Galway Advertiser.

Apart from telesales, with the fall in the economy, many sales reps actually cold call to houses late in the evening hoping to get their foot in the door.

So what happens when the sales reps get their foot in the door?

The pride of the sale reps tool kit is a twin probe "precipitator" which is a sales aid banned in many states of the US because of the misleading claims made when using it and it is firmly outlawed by the Water Quality Association - WQA.org because of the rip off tactics sales reps are able to get up to by being able to confuse customers.

The precipitator is dipped into a glass of water and an electric current allows the harmless mineral ions of hard water - calcium/magnesium and carbonates/bicarbonates to precipitate into visible solids to give an un-aesthetic look to the water.

Most water they are testing this on is generally safe mains scheme water that has a historically high compliance to EU Water Quality Directives, so the test is a complete con in order to give the idea the water is unsafe.

The EU regs, and EPA, and also HSE concerns are that water is chemically compliant in terms of other things than hardness minerals, these are okay and have no statutory limits, instead they look more for heavy metals, nitrates, THMs etc, all normally in exceptionally low levels in scheme water. But beyond this the HSE really put microbial and bacterial concerns at the top of the list, which are the most changeable in any water source and the quickest in terms of causing illness and disease, such as cryptosporidium in the outbreak last year.

Pure H2O do not bother with this most important testing parameter, and have no proper testing aids for it, and would not be able to do a test if they had them.

Water can only truly be accurately tested in an INAB compliant laboratory, either HSE or private, when degree trained chemists and microbiologists are doing the testing with 100's of thousands of euros worth of equipment, which have then been regularly validated and calibrated by an independent testing organisation -ie. INAB.

Not an untrained and unknowledgeable sales rep with a dip stick at your kitchen sink trying to rip you off by the tune of over 2000 euros, with a keen interest on getting themselves up to 400 euros commission out of you.

The problem with Pure H2O systems is that by adding the 5 dollar DI cartridge, which most other manufacturers don't bother using, is that although it polishes off the last 5% or so of lingering hard water minerals (totally harmless to the body), they get the opportunity to do the false precipitator test to show how clear water can be made, only when electric currents are passed through it, but they do not improve the water microbiologically.

Infact the use of DI cartridges are positively frown upon in the practice of safe water production because of two imprtant factors ..

1) DI cartridges are a "nest" for bacteria and will guarantee to elevate bacterial colony numbers in the filter system

2) Reduces the pH of the water to make it acidic as all alkaline mineral content is removed and normal / natural water pH levels of usually 7.2 to 7.8 are reduced to below the neutral level of 7.0 and way down below the safe water statutory limits of 6.5.

So for over 2000 euros, you end up with water stripped of its mineral content, that is then made unsafely acidic against HSE and EU regs, with the final risk of nesting bacteria to unsafe levels in the DI cartridge, sometimes venting ammonia which is a byproduct of high levels of some types of bacteria, and often complained about on the Joe Duffy show by angered customers.

That is just a small synopsis of what they are up to. I could go on for hours.

[zenn]

Forgot to mention about "closing the sale" and "aftersales".

The Pure H2O sales reps are instructed to "handcuff" clients by closing in on them rather harshly towards the end of their sales presentation, however long it takes whether it be one hour or four hours, by asking for a non-refundable sizeable deposit and asking for people to sign a contract, whether they are unsure or even elderly and afraid.

They will ask to escort people to the nearest cash point machine if any excuse is made about not having funds about or cheque book available.

The telesales staff always ask in advance that both the husband and wife are present, again to avoid clients the opportunity of ducking out after the sales pressure presentation by saying they need to consult with their "other half" before making any decision.

The ploy is to get the decision on the night of the sales call and "handcuff" the clients so they have no opportunity to start asking questions afterwards and check up on websites like "askaboutmoney" or compare prices with other systems on the market, to the point where if no sales is made, the sales person gets angry and storms off in a huff, taking with them the "free gift" that was originally promised under no obligation.

Oh, and aftersales ??

The price of the dual pre-filter annual filter change, started at below 85 euros, and then 85, up to 100, then 130 odd, about 150 (mentioned by owner of H20 on Joe Duffy in March) to recent pricing of 165 euros.

These two pre-filters are just a universally available 10 inch polypropylene polyspun 5 micron filter cartridge available elsewhere from anything from 1 euro in multiples or 5 euros in single quantities, along with a 10" carbon block cartridge available elsewhere from 5 euros in multiples or 10 euros in single quantities.

So a cost of anything from 6 euros for two filters which are now costing 165 euros.

The reason for the un-explained price hike from under 85 euros three years ago to 165 euros now, even with a recession looming, is to put people off paying another 1650 euros over the next ten years (warranty period), and when people seek these universally available filters elsewhere, they risk voiding their warranty terms that Pure H2O keep quiet about originally in the sales call.

So systems end up costing anything from 3650 euros over the ten year period, not to mention further prices hikes on servicing running at double inflation every three years, also the added and expensive membrane filter change and DI filter change which there is virtually no mention of in the warranty terms.

Most other Asian made, European made and US made RO systems on the market costing from 200 to 800 euros (often with installation and low service costs - 75 euros) produce verifiably better quality water without the pH drop and acidity, without extreme mineral stripping and without the bacterial contamination of water and ammonia caused by H2O DI or "RODI" models.

Pure H2O must be one of the largest sales rip offs to beset the Irish nation since cowboy builders in the celtic tiger years.

It is akin to a burgular kicking your front door down, storming into your kitchen to insult you for hours on end, and writing "big eejit" on your forehead, whilst laughing as they head off with up to 4000 euros worth of your future income, leaving a sour (and not so healthy) taste in your mouth.

[MOB]

Thanks indeed to Zenn for a well written summary with checkable hard facts.

I can confirm that Pure H20 insisted on both I and spouse being present for their demo; I can also confirm that their promo material was very cleverly written, and instantly awakened the cynic in me.

So, what is the overall feeling?

Get a decent treatment system cheaply?

Or continue to drink tap (which hasn't killed me yet)?

[MandaC]

Glad I noticed this thread. I had a sales person drop in a sample test kit last week, they told me to test it in my water and they would ring me.

Am going to tell them I am not interested now!

Thanks for making people aware Zenn with the informative posts.

[zenn]

Originally Posted by MOB

Thanks indeed to Zenn for a well written summary with checkable hard facts.

I can confirm that Pure H20 insisted on both I and spouse being present for their demo; I can also confirm that their promo material was very cleverly written, and instantly awakened the cynic in me.

So, what is the overall feeling?

Get a decent treatment system cheaply?

Or continue to drink tap (which hasn't killed me yet)?

Always buy value for money, whatever the cost.

Value for money ranges from anything as low as 200 to 300 euros (plus vat?) supplied in a box ready to install, from a reputable business, to over 500 fitted with a good clear printed warranty and back up support, to the very high end European, and a few minor US made (but not many) systems that can end up over the 1000 euros mark, but not very often.

When you talk about top end European systems, you should be looking for systems that pass the NSF validation and WQA gold seal certification, also the factory that made them should be in continental Europe or the Nordic countries and have a phone number that you can call the factory on.

Pure H2O systems are a loose bunch of rough looking odds and ends scattered around your sink press compared to some of the all in one European models.

The H2O unit usually has an exposed central filter cluster with pipes and fittings hanging out of it and makes buzzing noises, with a loose pump sat somewhere else on the shelf usually beside the main filter cluster, then there is another dual pre-filter bank screwed somewhere else on the side of the press, and finally another water tank sat underneath.

The whole thing looks amateurish and certainly a mess unless you see what an actual professionally made all in one cased European system looks like.

Apart from the RO system you are looking for, make sure you can phone the manufacturing plant and a separate manufacturer's warranty booklet it made available with their address.

Also make sure the company that supply the system do not break any of the following Holy rules of doing fair and reasonable business ....

1) They should offer a fully priced colour brochure and have a clear and unambiguous website with pricing also.

2) They should never ask for a deposit at any time, and definitely not ask for you to be signing contracts. What's all that about?

3) They should offer a free no obligation, none sales based technical survey if they are fitting the unit and show you the actual RO system being sold in the flesh, with all associated documentation.

4) They should give clear printed costs of all servicing and proof of how consistent their costs have been over the last few years.

5) They should allow you to call any of the previous customers they have sold to in your area, as they should want praise from these customerss, in satisfaction, value for money and back up service.

6) No free gifts or cheap gimmicks should be involved whatsoever. Do not take telesales calls seriously. Are the company loudly and proudly advertised in the Golden pages or elsewhere?

7) Ask if they open 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, or do they have printed proof of 7 day cover with guaranteed same day callouts?

8) Laboratory tests should ALWAYS be done by certified INAB laboratories, either HSE, hospital or good private INAB labs, by professionals, and independently, with you taking your own samples in.

9) Basic, litmus paper tests, and bottle titration or tablet tests at the sink give a rough idea, and a broad picture of some single parameters, but independent impartial HSE lab tests costing 40 to 50 euros for Chemical parameters and 25 euros for Microbiological parameters are by far the best and are subsidised, so are value for money and best in the long run.

10) Always get at least three separate quotes and weigh up what each company are telling you.