No payrises in benchmarking ? "Shock"

[Purple]

Completely incorrect. Civil servants have no choice in the matter - pension contributions are deducted from salary.

A contribution towards pensions is deducted from their salary. The majority of the funding for their pension comes from the exchequer. This is a massive cost to the country and is ignored by the unions when they are deciding how the country is run.
I would like to country to be run by the government and I would like managers to be allowed to manage. We all hear about vested interest groups like the building industry lobby and how they are damaging the country. No vested interest group does more to damage the country or further disenfranchise the poorest in our communities than the public sector unions. Their policy of lobbying for wealth redistribution from the poor to the protected parts of the middle classes is the most cynical sell-out of any supposedly socialist group I have ever heard of. They are a cancer in this economy and this society.

 

[Sunny]

now, instead of moaning, some positive ideas to improve public services please!

1) Reduce the numbers employed in public services.
2) Change work practices to reflect the modern economy and the realities faced in the private sector.
3) Increased accountabiliity for senior civil servants and semi state bodies CEO's. If they want to be benchmarked against the private sector for pay, they can be benchamarked for performance as well and face the consequences.
4) Recuce the bureaucratic nature of much of the public sector.
5) Embrace technology. It is 2008, not 1908!
6) Train staff in project management
7) Incentivise staff with promotions, pay rises and bonuses based on merit. From what I gather this is not happening.
8) Reduce the influence of trade unions.
9) Get rid of alot of the dead wood that I would say has built up over the years
10) Reliase that taxpayers don't mind paying for a public sector but they expect something better than what they are getting. That is why so many people have such a problem with benchmarking.

Oh and I would also target politicians by reducing number of TD's, reforming the Seanad, change pension to defined contribution and jail whoever is reponsible for things like e-voting machines!!

 

[triplex]

Sunny,

At last - great stuff..have been saying it for years myself- completely agree- bring it on!

 

[Purple]

Excellent post Sunny. Your suggestions are reasonable, logical and fair. It'll never happen.

 

[csirl]

Whether they're public servants, civil servants or private sector workers on a looooong-term contract for Govt body, they ALL get paid from the exchequer purse.

This is true. But, it should not be. Employees of private organisations (e.g. hospitals) should NOT Be included in Benchmarking and the State should NOT be taking employment risk on behalf of their employers and should NOT be setting their pay and conditions.

The pay and conditions of these employees should be between the employees and their employers - same as any other private sector employees - and should be set by the market rate.

This is essentially the problem with the health service in Ireland. The employees (and employers), through clever political manipulation over the decades, have got themselves in a position whereby the State has ended up with all the pay risks and they dont have the productivity demands that private sector workers delivering a service should have. We've even got the crazy situation whereby the State is even adminstering their payrolls and getting stung for doing so - PPARS.

The State needs to stop dealing with these employees directly. Hospitals should have to tender for State contracts and should receive payment proportionate to volumne of services actually provided for State patients.

Next time you see a bunch of nurses on strike, remember that the State does NOT employ them - their employer is a privately owned hospital. Why is the State even talking to nurses unions? If their employers cant handle their own IR issues, they should withdraw from the medical business and let someone else tender for the contract.

Thinking aloud, apart from the obvious procurement issues, shouldnt the Competition Authority be looking at why every privately owned hospital in the State that delivers public health has EXACTLY the same pay scales? Isnt this price fixing?

 

[Purple]

Stop making sense! Next you will be saying that socialist collectivism is a bad thing and that the individual is more important than the state. If you had your way we would all be judged and valued based on how smart we were and how hard we worked. If that happened we'd have a fair society and a successful economy. Where do you get off?

 

[Pique318]

Stop making sense! Next you will be saying that socialist collectivism is a bad thing and that the individual is more important than the state. If you had your way we would all be judged and valued based on how smart we were and how hard we worked. If that happened we'd have a fair society and a successful economy. Where do you get off?

LOL...thanks Purple, I now have to clean my keyboard of the coffee I spat all over it !!!

 

[RainyDay]

Well the big news is that most Irish people don't work in IT or for big Multinationals. Most of them work for small businesses

Source please?

I don't know anyone working in the private sector whose pension is majority funded by their employer.

I do.

Every week we hear another story about gross waste in the public sector (and you, in the real world that includes the HSE).
Last week it was the report on patient abuse in the nursing home in the phoenix park that took TWO YEARS and we not find that they didn't interview everyone so they have to start again. If the person in charge of compiling the report didn't follow procedure they should be sacked. If their boss didn't put a procedure in place then they should be sacked. But it won't happen, it never does.

Indeed, there are frequent reports of waste and error in the public sector, which the right-wing media delight in giving maximum coverage. And of course, there are frequent reports of waste and error in the private sector. Almost weekly, we have reports of how the financial institutions made 'errors' in applying fees to customers. We get reports of delayed and abandoned ICT projects in both public and private sectors. Of course, many of the problems in private organisations remain private, as we don't have a C&AG which investigates AIB and NTL etc.

Their policy of lobbying for wealth redistribution from the poor to the protected parts of the middle classes is the most cynical sell-out of any supposedly socialist group I have ever heard of.

Please mention one union policy which seeks to redistribute wealth from the poor to the middle classes.

We have a public sector that is unaccountable, inefficient and overstaffed which, for the most part, delivers a shoddy service to the public which it is laughable meant to serve. In that context, and taking their very short week and fantastic terms and conditions into account, I consider them to be overpaid. No off topic ramblings about bank managers will change this view.
Do I want a public service? Yes, but I want one that serves the public, not itself.

Your positioning of public & private sector as extreme opposites is just fiction. Both are made of generally good people, who do generally good work most of the time. We're not that different, really...

 

[Howitzer]

Their policy of lobbying for wealth redistribution from the poor to the protected parts of the middle classes is the most cynical sell-out of any supposedly socialist group I have ever heard of.

Please mention one union policy which seeks to redistribute wealth from the poor to the middle classes.

Whilst Purple may have been joking I would actually agree with the conclusion drawn from it. For the most part Trade Unions in Ireland do not represent their traditional audience, they represent middle class members of the public sector (Public, Civil, HSE, whatever) or privatised ex public sector (Eircom, AL).

What is the role of a Trade Union? If your job and pay conditions are guarenteed then what does it do?

The cases of the Gama workers and Irish Ferry employees have shed a very bad light on the Irish Trade Union movement and their motivations.

Where the Irish tax payer is the one footing the bill, and the lower you go down the employment foodchain the greater a proportion of your wages you'll pay in taxes (inc VAT), then Purples assertation is factually correctish.

I have no references to back my opinions however it can be seen from this thread and many others that there is a huge amount of antipathy and downright antagonism directed against the Irish Trade Unions and their members. Why is that? It wasn't always that way.

 

[shnaek]

Indeed, there are frequent reports of waste and error in the public sector, which the right-wing media delight in giving maximum coverage. And of course, there are frequent reports of waste and error in the private sector. Almost weekly, we have reports of how the financial institutions made 'errors' in applying fees to customers. We get reports of delayed and abandoned ICT projects in both public and private sectors. Of course, many of the problems in private organisations remain private, as we don't have a C&AG which investigates AIB and NTL etc.

Public purse wastage is paid for by the taxpayer. That is the difference. And while errors in fees etc by financial institutions are a disgrace, the taxpayer is yet to get their money back from wastage such as electronic voting etc.

If a bank official or a company employee is found responsible for spending 50 million euros on a project which fails, they will be let go.

Yet the water in Galway county was poisoned for months and I haven't heard of a single person being held responsible. Heck, the people responsible will end up gaining from national wage agreement pay rises! Do you really believe someone in the private sector would be rewarded for the same level of incompetence? Do you believe a company could continue in business if they offered this level of service?

 

[triplex]

Shneak:
Do you believe a company could continue in business if they offered this level of service?

Yes - what about when AIB bought a finacially unsound insurance company in the 1990's - the insurance company failed, placing AIB in danger, so the goverment GAVE AIB taxpayer's money to save bank. AIB have been making massive profits and the taxpayer money has not yet been returned...

Beat THAT!!

[broken link removed]

 

[Howitzer]

Shneak:
Do you believe a company could continue in business if they offered this level of service?

Yes - what about when AIB bought a finacially unsound insurance company in the 1990's - the insurance company failed, placing AIB in danger, so the goverment GAVE AIB taxpayer's money to save bank. AIB have been making massive profits and the taxpayer money has not yet been returned...

Beat THAT!!

[broken link removed]

Calling all conspiracy theorists!

The extent to which big business and the Irish polical system became intertwined during the 80's and early 90's makes it irrelevant as a point of reference when discussing best practices.

 

[ubiquitous]

Calling all conspiracy theorists!

The extent to which big business and the Irish polical system became intertwined during the 80's and early 90's makes it irrelevant as a point of reference when discussing best practices.

Agreed.

 

[z103]

There are some excellent points made in this thread.

The public sector is choking this country. Unless we have some Thatcheresque reforms fairly quickly, there will be very hard times ahead.

(BTW, I work in the private sector, and can't afford a pension.)

 

[dodo]

So what? Are you suggesting that public sector employees should accept terms & conditions that are generally lower than the norm, simply because they are public employees?

Well I think there should be more investigating into their sick's like any job in the private sector that I have come across, when you have unions involved things are much more complicated than in the private sector,remember most semi states if not all pay 6 moths when out sick the same cant be said with private sector and I pay for their sick's and you

 

[MOB]

"Yes - what about when AIB bought a finacially unsound insurance company in the 1990's - the insurance company failed, placing AIB in danger, so the goverment GAVE AIB taxpayer's money to save bank. AIB have been making massive profits and the taxpayer money has not yet been returned..."

Is this true? Certainly the linked article does not support the assertion. It would appear that the government (via the Central Bank) put in £30m and got it all back: to paraphrase the article:

1. The insolvent ICI was handed over for free to Icarom
2. £100m was deposited with Icarom, £70m by AIB and £30m by the Central Bank,
3. AIB got a £76m settlement from their auditors in 1995, half of the £76m was given to ICI administrator Icarom.
4. by September of 2000 Icarom paid AIB and the Central Bank back the £100m in full.
5. AIB continues to pay £8.8m a year to the ICI administrator and will do so until 2013.

It is not clear whether the state got interest on its money, but if the newspaper article is accurate, then it certainly does not support the assertion that the taxpayers money has not yet been returned.

 

[RainyDay]

Thanks for the link. Obviously, this is still a 3rd-party claim. Unless/until I see the relevant Dept Finance comment, I'll take this with a large pinch of salt. I've emailed Chambers Ireland to ask them for their source.

Chambers Ireland responded to my email, indicating that this claim was contained in "by the Department of Finance to the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service". I can't find the content of any such submission on either the Dept Finance website of the Review body website www.reviewbody.ie - Can anyone else find this submission?

Well I think there should be more investigating into their sick's like any job in the private sector that I have come across, when you have unions involved things are much more complicated than in the private sector,remember most semi states if not all pay 6 moths when out sick the same cant be said with private sector and I pay for their sick's and you

Now I'm confused. Didn't you agree in this post that the sick pay conditions in public and private sector were generally the same? I've no problem with any reasonable investigation into those on long-term sick pay, in both public and private sector. I've never heard of a union standing in the way on any such reasonable investigations.

Public purse wastage is paid for by the taxpayer. That is the difference. And while errors in fees etc by financial institutions are a disgrace, the taxpayer is yet to get their money back from wastage such as electronic voting etc.

And private sector wastage is paid for by the taxpayer (aka the consumer) through the prices paid for goods and services.

If a bank official or a company employee is found responsible for spending 50 million euros on a project which fails, they will be let go.

Yet the water in Galway county was poisoned for months and I haven't heard of a single person being held responsible. Heck, the people responsible will end up gaining from national wage agreement pay rises! Do you really believe someone in the private sector would be rewarded for the same level of incompetence? Do you believe a company could continue in business if they offered this level of service?

I personally have seen a few major private sector multi-million project failures where no-one got fired, and most of the guilty got promoted or at worst moved sideways. And this was in agressive, competitive multi-national environments. It ain't all that different.

There are some excellent points made in this thread.

The public sector is choking this country. Unless we have some Thatcheresque reforms fairly quickly, there will be very hard times ahead.

(BTW, I work in the private sector, and can't afford a pension.)

Spend a bit of time checking out the impact of the Thatcheresque reforms on the rail service or local bus services in the UK, and then come back and tell me that this is really where we want to go.

 

[z103]

Spend a bit of time checking out the impact of the Thatcheresque reforms on the rail service or local bus services in the UK, and then come back and tell me that this is really where we want to go.

I believe the UK transport system is far superior to the Irish one. They actually have rail links to their airports, for example. As far as I'm aware, most of Thatcher's transport policies haven't been reversed by New Labour.

To be honest, Irish transport infrastructure is an embarrassment.

 

[Purple]

Source please?

I’ll Google it and come back to you. My source was RTE 1 radio.

I do.

I don’t

Indeed, there are frequent reports of waste and error in the public sector, which the right-wing media delight in giving maximum coverage. And of course, there are frequent reports of waste and error in the private sector. Almost weekly, we have reports of how the financial institutions made 'errors' in applying fees to customers. We get reports of delayed and abandoned ICT projects in both public and private sectors. Of course, many of the problems in private organisations remain private, as we don't have a C&AG which investigates AIB and NTL etc.

So what? Your assertion in a later post that we pay for these mistakes as consumers shows the typical socialist lack of understanding of free market economics. With competition if one company screws up and adds cost to their product they cannot pass this cost on if it means that their good or service will be uncompetitive as a result.

Please mention one union policy which seeks to redistribute wealth from the poor to the middle classes.

The unions have pushed hard for pay increases for their middle class public sector members for the last ten years as part of the agenda they set within social partnership. They have also demanded that direct taxation is not increased to fund these lavish tax increases. They did this in the full knowledge that this would result in an increase in indirect taxation (bin charges, water charges etc). These charges have a higher proportional impact the lower the income is of the person paying them. This goes against everything that unions fought for in their early years before they sold out the poor and became a lobby group.

Your positioning of public & private sector as extreme opposites is just fiction. Both are made of generally good people, who do generally good work most of the time. We're not that different, really...

It doesn’t matter how smart or well someone works in a badly run organisation. Unions prevent management from managing. They prevent the lazy and the incompetent from being sanctioned and they prevent the hard working and smart from being rewarded. In short they set the bar as low as possible and they do everything to ensure that it stays there.

 

[zephyro]

And private sector wastage is paid for by the taxpayer (aka the consumer) through the prices paid for goods and services.

I don't care about inefficiency and waste as long as I have the option of not subsidising it. I do with private sector services (e.g. the bank I use) but I don't with public sector services.