No payrises in benchmarking ? "Shock"

[dodo]

Finally !!!

What will the unions do if this happens ? Freak out ? Strike ? Fall in behind FG ?

I am so delighted with this outcome, I really am and my wife works in a semi state job. They are spoilt, they had a xmas party and it cost the company 150.00 euros a head.
That is tax payers money. Six months of sick fully paid, unbeliveable if you ask me.

 

[RainyDay]

they had a xmas party and it cost the company 150.00 euros a head...Six months of sick fully paid, unbeliveable if you ask me.

Sounds like the terms & conditions of most private sector organisations that I've worked for. Sick leave of course is dependant on doctor's certification, both own doctor and company doctor if necessary.

 

[John Rambo]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

I have serious issues with the benchmarking process as I don't feel comparisons between the public and private sectors are valid.

The unions like to through extreme examples like BOI head Brian Goggin around to try and muddy the waters but the fact remains public sector workers enjoy far greater job security and their pension situation is superior.

The Department of Finance themselves have said that a public sector salary of €176,000 with the normal pension entitlements is the equivalent of a salary of €500,000 in the private sector with no pension benefits.

This is a salient point, so where the idea that the civil service pension is only worth a 12% discount when "benchmarking" is beyond me.

And is benchmarking an upwards only process?

Crying foul when a recommendation of maintaining the status quo is handed down is outrageous.

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

The Department of Finance themselves have said that a public sector salary of €176,000 with the normal pension entitlements is the equivalent of a salary of €500,000 in the private sector with no pension benefits.

WHen/where did they say this?

 

[cole]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

The Department of Finance themselves have said that a public sector salary of €176,000 with the normal pension entitlements is the equivalent of a salary of €500,000 in the private sector with no pension benefits.

So in general terms, a public salary of X with pension is equivalent to a private sector salary of 2.84X? In that case I'll take almost three times my salary without the pension contributions.

 

[John Rambo]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

So in general terms, a public salary of X with pension is equivalent to a private sector salary of 2.84X? In that case I'll take almost three times my salary without the pension contributions.

Why would you do that...because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?!

 

[Guest127]

so the atm is out of cash. build a wall and get over it. civil and public servants are not entitled to automatic wage increases without delivering. and deliver for the 1st round they certainly didn't. and for the likes of me dont know how retired staff were able to join in this little merrygoround. how exactly did a retired person increase their productivity?

 

[cole]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

Why would you do that...because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?!

No. Because I'll be far better off financially.

 

[John Rambo]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

No. Because I'll be far better off financially.

You might be, but only through superior investments made by yourself.I too would prefer the €500,000 no pension option but from a the same start point there is parity.

 

[cole]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

I too would prefer the €500,000 no pension option but from a the same start point there is parity.

There is parity when the pension = 324k per annum.

 

[John Rambo]

Re: Public Service Benchmarking Body Report (Factual Disucssion)

There is parity when the pension = 324k per annum.

Not true. In simple terms the pension goes on until you die, plus you get a lump sum, plus there's taxation and contribution limits to consider.

 

[RainyDay]

So in general terms, a public salary of X with pension is equivalent to a private sector salary of 2.84X? In that case I'll take almost three times my salary without the pension contributions.

Why would you do that...because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?!

No. Because I'll be far better off financially.

You might be, but only through superior investments made by yourself.I too would prefer the €500,000 no pension option but from a the same start point there is parity.

There is parity when the pension = 324k per annum.

Not true. In simple terms the pension goes on until you die, plus you get a lump sum, plus there's taxation and contribution limits to consider.

Gentlemen - I'm pretty sure you are arguing about fictional numbers, unless/until John Rambo shows a source for his Dept Finance claim.

 

[ajapale]

I enjoyed this blog:
The Uncivil Servant's Rant: I don't like Benchmarking anymore.

I'm a civil servant and I'm OK, I sleep all night and I work half the day, I like benchmarking, big long tea breaks and sleeping on the job.

The ramblings and insane witterings of a junior manager in the Irish Civil Service posted in the public domain for the amusement of anyone who happens to give a .. .. .

 

[dodo]

Sounds like the terms & conditions of most private sector organisations that I've worked for. Sick leave of course is dependant on doctor's certification, both own doctor and company doctor if necessary.

Yes fair point but private sector sick's are not paid by the tax payer but by the company itself.

 

[RainyDay]

Yes fair point but private sector sick's are not paid by the tax payer but by the company itself.

So what? Are you suggesting that public sector employees should accept terms & conditions that are generally lower than the norm, simply because they are public employees?

 

[Howitzer]

So what? Are you suggesting that public sector employees should accept terms & conditions that are generally lower than the norm, simply because they are public employees?

I thought this round of benchmarking empirically established that public sector wages WEREN'T lower than the norm? Isn't that the whole point?

 

[Sherpa]

Gentlemen - I'm pretty sure you are arguing about fictional numbers, unless/until John Rambo shows a source for his Dept Finance claim.

The following Irish Independent article includes this quote:


"The report put the value of pensions at 12pc of salary, but business group Chambers Ireland said that was too low.
"The Department of Finance itself calculated that a pensionable public service salary of €186,000 was equivalent to a non-pensionable salary of €500,000 a year," said its chief executive, John Dunne."

 

[RainyDay]

I thought this round of benchmarking empirically established that public sector wages WEREN'T lower than the norm? Isn't that the whole point?

My comment was specifically in response to Dodo's apparent concern that public sector staff had similar sick leave policies to other staff. I'll set Dodo respond.

The following Irish Independent article includes this quote:


"The report put the value of pensions at 12pc of salary, but business group Chambers Ireland said that was too low.
"The Department of Finance itself calculated that a pensionable public service salary of €186,000 was equivalent to a non-pensionable salary of €500,000 a year," said its chief executive, John Dunne."

Thanks for the link. Obviously, this is still a 3rd-party claim. Unless/until I see the relevant Dept Finance comment, I'll take this with a large pinch of salt. I've emailed Chambers Ireland to ask them for their source.

 

[triplex]

Rainyday, you are the only one making sense - everyone else just seems to be moaning about common perceptions with very little evidence.

Gipimann:
'I think HSE staff (including myself) just want to make the distinction between ourselves and civil servants because of the different pension arrangements - public servants pay towards their pension, civil servants do not. That's all.'

Completely incorrect. Civil servants have no choice in the matter - pension contributions are deducted from salary.

"The Department of Finance itself calculated that a pensionable public service salary of €186,000 was equivalent to a non-pensionable salary of €500,000 a year," said its chief executive, John Dunne."

The above relates to a very senior grade in the civil service - senior executive level. Not ordinary rank and file. Again, perspective...

now, instead of moaning, some positive ideas to improve public services please!

 

[Purple]

I'll take these moans seriously when you provide meaningful comparisons. So for private sector employees, how are their pensions funded (majority funded by the employer, right?). I contribute towards my bank's income through bank charges, so do I get to moan about my bank's contribution to my bank manager's pension?[I know your answer will say that I can change my bank, but not my public servant - so what? What's the alternative? Do you want no public services?] The balance isn't made up by 'the rest of us'. It is made up by 'all of us' - us public servants pay taxes too.

And when you do your comparison, don't forget to include the many low-level public sector staff who get little benefit from their pension contributions, given that the standard OAP is deducted before the pension is paid.

How many private sector staff don't get increments following a performance review? How many private sector staff will pass pickets etc. Otherwise, this is just a meaningless B&M session.

Well the big news is that most Irish people don't work in IT or for big Multinationals. Most of them work for small businesses that don't have employer funded pension plans and don't have structured performance reviews. They just work their asses off and hope they will have a job next week. I don't know anyone working in the private sector whose pension is majority funded by their employer. I don't know anyone in the private sector who doesn't count their employers contribution toward their pension as part of their salary.

Every week we hear another story about gross waste in the public sector (and you, in the real world that includes the HSE).
Last week it was the report on patient abuse in the nursing home in the phoenix park that took TWO YEARS and we not find that they didn't interview everyone so they have to start again. If the person in charge of compiling the report didn't follow procedure they should be sacked. If their boss didn't put a procedure in place then they should be sacked. But it won't happen, it never does. We have a public sector that is unaccountable, inefficient and overstaffed which, for the most part, delivers a shoddy service to the public which it is laughable meant to serve. In that context, and taking their very short week and fantastic terms and conditions into account, I consider them to be overpaid. No off topic ramblings about bank managers will change this view.
Do I want a public service? Yes, but I want one that serves the public, not itself.