Buying from a main dealer - how to check car history?

[ang1170]

I couldn't say with 100% certainity that every SIMI approved Main dealer has not sold a clocked car but I'd be 99% sure. The 1% would be cars we didn't know were clocked..

I'm perfectly willing to believe this. I assume you'd be willing to believe the same as your UK counterparts (franchised main dealers, that is not some dodgy back street cowboy)?.

FUD, from what I can see this would be information passed on by people saying that every SIMI approved Main dealer is out to screw people. Even when we go to extreme lenghts to get SIMI approval, be able to hold on to a main dealership and even meet ISO requirements. We do our best to be as transparent as possible and still people go else where and have bad experiences with otheres who are not approved for anything and rant and rave about that and give the MOTOR INDUSTRY a bad name..

Again, I've no issue with what you say here. However, people going to UK to buy a car are simply making a consumer choice: it's called competition. Every business has it. You mightn't like it, but that's the way business is.

Having siad that, I completely sympathise with what you say about paople going to buying privately or buying from dodgy dealers here (or the UK) and expecting the same level of support that you give (and giving the industry a bad name, as you say). However, your problem is with those dealers NOT with consumers going to the UK (or buying a properly documented UK car that's already here).

Of course there are more clocked and dodge cars in UK, look at your HPI site and work out the numbers there are saying are "faulty" in some way and look at the sheer number of cars registered in the UK. Simple maths would let you work that one out..

Are you talking about absolute numbers here? if so, these make no sense. Talk about % of cars that are clocked. Where's the evidence that the % of cars clocked is higher in the UK than here?

Am I saying that UK dealers would sell a "Ringer", the man I mentioned above bought from a dealer in the UK and it was a ringer, so yes I am.

Any more likely than a dealer here doing the same? If you make the claim you'd best come up with some evidence. My assumption (and most people's) is that there are good and bad dealers both here and the UK, and that if you stick to franchised main dealers in both places your chances of getting a clocked/ringed car are low.

ang1170, you gave away all your details of your car. Your SIMI from that you signed when you traded in your car will have all you trade in details.
Give me the reg off it and the milage if you like?

I'm not sure why you're pushing this: what are you hoping to prove? Out of interest I'll check this evening if I have any of the details and PM you, though I'm not sure what it'll achieve.

Profit on an Import! we won't retail a UK import. I can safetly say nearly every car we have had in here trying to trade in and for service/repair work has been clocked that has come from the UK.

Just because you wouldn't retail an import doesn't mean to say plenty of dealers aren't happy to sell a properly documented and verified UK import.

 

[Mr2]

RS2K, would you belive it 03OY3217 V.W. Passat is not an Irish car.
That's mad! I wonder where it came from?

We love competition, for sales and more important aftersales (when something goes wrong) a SIMI, main dealer will always take care of it's own customer better than anyone can.

The HPI gives the % of cars and it's an awful lot for the UK. The Irish market is "Mickey Mouse" stuff copared to the rest of the 1st world. There are a lot more non-approved garages in the UK up to this stuff. There are only a few places in Ireland that are able to clock digital dispaly cars.

I am glad that you are agreeing with me on most stuff at this stage.
VRT is not our friend, it does us no favours.

 

[ButtermilkJa]

I have noticed a phenomenal amount of UK impoorts on dealers forecourts over the last 12 months. Granted, these are mostly in 'yard sale' dealers and not main dealers.

I definately think there needs to be more protection for consumers. Last year I bought a Hyundai Coupe from a SIMI dealer in Dublin. They assured me there was no repairs done to the car and everything was genuine. I found out when I went to tax it (after I had pourchased it!) that it had not been taxed in 5 months, and when I traded it in 2 weeks ago the dealer told me that it had considerable repair and respray work done to the front wing. Without proof I can't say for sure, but I would guess that the first garage were repairing this car themselves before putting it on the forecourt. And this was a SIMI garage.

In terms of being able to check mileage in Ireland, I agree that the NCT should be forced to at least provide these details if asked. When I traded in the Hyundai Coupe I bought a 2004 Commercial LandCruiser with only 27k on the clock. The steering wheel was quite worn compard to other 2004 models which concerned me but I did all the checks I could do in this country, including ringing the Department of Transport to find out when and where the last DOE was done and then contacting the doe centre to request the recorded mileage. After this checked out, and because i was getting 12 months Toyota Dealer Cover, I bought the jeep.

I guess my point is, there needs to be more done to tip things in the consumers favour, as regards history/mileage checks.

 

[ButtermilkJa]

RS2K, would you belive it 03OY3217 V.W. Passat is not an Irish car.
That's mad! I wonder where it came from?

Are you crossing threads with the one linked to from Boards.ie on page 2 of this thread? The Passat was imported from the UK.

EDIT: Sorry, perhaps I missed the sarcasm

 

[ang1170]

The HPI gives the % of cars and it's an awful lot for the UK.

But that's the whole point! In the UK, although it's not perfect, you have a way of checking with HPI. Here????

The Irish market is "Mickey Mouse" stuff copared to the rest of the 1st world. There are a lot more non-approved garages in the UK up to this stuff. There are only a few places in Ireland that are able to clock digital dispaly cars.

I guess there's not much point in asking you for any evidence of this?

 

[Mr2]

Sorry ButtermilkJa, the link is on the bottom of the second page on this, that's where I found it. Don't know where that site was just followed the link.

I agree if the NCT find a difference with the milage they should be allowed to tell you. It's mad that you cant.

ang1170, I won't waste my time going into google but if you want check how many dealerships are in the UK and do the same in Ireland and so on and you'll see. you'll get sales figures.

 

[ang1170]

I agree if the NCT find a difference with the milege they should be allowed to tell you. It's mad that you cant..

Agreed 100%.

ang1170, I won't waste my time going into google but if you want check how many dealerships are in the UK and do the same in Ireland and so on and you'll see. you'll get sales figures.

Huh? I think with a population of 60m as opposed to 4m they just might have a few more dealers OK.

As I said, the absolute figures are meaningless: it's the % chance of getting a clocked car that's the relevant figure.

By the way, and this is only a guess, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if all these clocked UK cars you're seeing aren't being bought genuinely in the UK and clocked when they get here (by the people bringing them in).

 

[Mr2]

The figures do matter not just the %. if 1% of our population by new cars thats say 40,000 new cars a year, in the UK that would be 600,000 so the chances would be far greater.

I would agree with you about them being clocked here in Ireland aswell. We can see what they entered the docks at in the UK and what they have now. But my point is they will have nothing to do with SIMI approved Main dealers. But so long as people continue to buy from small dealers etc they fuel the problem.

 

[ang1170]

The figures do matter not just the %. if 1% of our population by new cars thats say 40,000 new cars a year, in the UK that would be 600,000 so the chances would be far greater..

No, the chances of buying a clocked car (all things being equal) are the number of clocked cars for sale divided by the total number of cars for sale, which is a percentage. If you buy in the UK (or a UK car here with a documented history) you have a much greater chance of ensuring that all things are not equal and the chance is very low.

As I said before, I'm perfectly willing to believe that chances are also low when buying from a reputable dealer (in either country). "Reputable" being short-hand for franchised main dealer.

The big problem is buying privately or from a dealer with an unknown reputation here: you've no way of checking the mileage.

I would agree with you about them being clocked here in Ireland aswell. We can see what they entered the docks at in the UK and what they have now. But my point is they will have nothing to do with SIMI approved Main dealers. But so long as people continue to buy from small dealers etc they fuel the problem.

 

[Murt10]

There are only a few places in Ireland that are able to clock digital dispaly cars.

QUOTE]

I thought that's what all the lads in Buy and Sell with a mobile telephone number advertising mileage correction services were doing. Have laptop, will travel.


Murt

 

[ButtermilkJa]

I thought that's what all the lads in Buy and Sell with a mobile telephone number advertising mileage correction services were doing. Have laptop, will travel.


Murt

It is, exactly. There are plenty of people who are willing and able to clock cars, digital odo or not.

As a matter of interest, what would be the reasons why someone would legally want a car clocked? I only ask because it is not illegal to clock cars in this country, so why would this service be needed?

 

[Mr2]

ang1170, I would agree if you buy direct from a SIMI, Main dealer in the UK your self, chances are you'll be grand. For the people that don't (most people) they buy from the little garage who give us a bad name because they are usually clocked.

The lads with "the lap tops" just change what you see on the clock, again that's small stuff, to properly clock a car there is a bit more to it. On most cars there are different control units with memories that cannot be wiped and there different per car. The only way to do this is to replace the different control units with a "virgin control unit" which you then up load the milage at which you removed the old one. But it's wired to different control units so you can't lie to it as it will not accept an incorect milage reading (within 1,000 kms). There's a bit more to it but I won't bore you with it.

Clocking, they call it "adjusting", I'm not sure why people do it and still drive them but a customer that did it and said he didn't want to be driving a car with huge milage on the clock, he said if some one got into his car and had to drive it they might think bad of my fancy car. This was his reason (maybe a bit vain) but he was happy.

 

[ang1170]

That's interesting about being able to detect when a car has been "clocked": I wasn't aware it was possible. If that's the case, why don't (legit) dealers sell with a warrenty that the mileage is genuine (i.e. if it turns out not to be genuine, they'll take it back at the price it was sold at)? or if they do this already, make more of a deal about it? If this became common, it would tend to freeze out those that didn't offer such a warrenty.

What would really make a difference would be a service like HPI here.

As for your story about the customer clocking his own car, I'd take that one with a barrel load of salt: he knows very well the effect the mileage has when he comes to sell it.

 

[Mr2]

Maybe we should make a bigger deal out of it but the Motor Trade already has a bad rep as it is, if we were to would it make us look even worse?

As regards a Warranty, we sort of do, we'll give you a years warranty or sometimes at lease 6 months, alot of small places it's "buyer be ware" or 3 month warranty and your left on your own.

For something like HPI here, we are building a data base at the moment, so final date yet but they are working out details at the moment.

We asked him about the adjusting, he said it's for him now and that's all that matters, he'll keep driving it, we asked what will he do when he wants rid of it, sell it and what ever milage is on it when he does get rid would be none of our business.

There's nothing we can do, but we have it on our computer system current and real milage and it will be on the above data base.

 

[RS2K]

The motor trade should make a positive out of standing over any used car they sell.

They should check and verify mileages & history, and fully indemnify customers should they sell them a dud.

p.s. If the checks were done correctly and thoroughly, this would never happen btw.

 

[Mr2]

We do as much as we can, Toyota dealer cover, Nissan gold standard etc,
but people will still go to Joe Bloggs Motors until they get badly stung.

We have done our best, you won't find a dud on our forecourts. But freewill lets people go where they want (we can't and won't stop them), competition will rule and be the deciding factor at the end when the whole owning a car experience is actually fully checked out (SIMI,Main dealers will win).

 

[ButtermilkJa]

We do as much as we can, Toyota dealer cover, Nissan gold standard etc,...

Just out of curiosity, if I buy from a Main Delaer (e.g. Toyota) and I get 12 months Toyota Dealer Cover, does this guarantee me my car is genuine, or is it simply a higher chance it's genuine?

I mean, will the Toyota dealer do every check possible to ensure the car is genuine? The reason I ask is because I did recently buy a car from a Toyota Dealer with this cover, but it was left up to me to ring the Dept. of Transport, DOE Test Centre, owner etc., to check mileage as best I could.

Surely if the dealer can do these checks he would, and have the details for me if I'm interested in buying the car. None of this was ever mentoned to me. I had to dig myself. And even then the DOE centre guy was very reluctant to give out any info on the vehicle in question to a casual caller.

If the dealers could gather this info and make it available to potential customers it would leave them in a much stronger position!

 

[ang1170]

That's what I meant about a warrenty for mileage (and description): if the mileage is subsequently found to be incorrect, the dealer should warrent they'll take it back at the full price paid. If they did this, people would have a lot more confidence, as it moves the risk to the dealer rather from the consumer.

I can't see why they wouldn't offer such a warrenty if they're confident enough in the checks they do.

This is over and above any other warrenty, which covers defects that can happen to any car (the remedy for which is repair rather than refund).

 

[ButtermilkJa]

I agree, I think these guarantees would be worth more on paper.

When you trade in any car you fill out the SIMI order form, and you state whether or not the car has been damaged, clocked, etc in any way, while under your ownership. If you say no, and then the car is later found to be clocked, the dealer can use this order form as evidence and take you to court.

At least this is what the salesman told me when I was buying my jeep and had concerns over the mileage.

I would just be more interested to know if this is indeed the case, and if so, why can't it be made more official to give customers peace of mind?

 

[Mr2]

As I've said before we have only got access to this information recently and are still building an even bigger data base. Going forward we will probally do something like this but we will not want to make a huge issue of clocked cars we will just blanket ban them.

The cost to a dealer for this would increase the price of the cars, while we may have access to previous owners etc we could not give it out otherwise you would have people ringing previous customers and like I said above most people don't want to know any more about the car they traded in.

Where would we draw the line at the amount of info we coud give to a private person. It would almost be completly based on trust with your dealer then put in very awkard sisuations if something did go wrong and a customer demanding to talk to a previous owner to make sure he/she didn't get a dud and an ex-owner who doesn't want to know. Where would the dealer be left? Prob with a solictor letter on our desk. It wouldn't make sence.