Bank refusing to refund fraudulent debit card transactions - thief had pin

[mathepac]

... however they are irrelevant in this case. The Bank provided a security system which the OP negated by leaving their cards unattended and allowing their PIN number to be discovered by a third party. ...

I'd like to hear how you reached the "irrelevant" conclusion, unless it's by not reading or understanding posts fully.

OP stated that she left the card(s) in a locked hotel room and nowhere is there a statement that she compromised security by writing the PIN anywhere; to the contrary she states she did NOT write down the PIN and that the card was only used to pay the hotel, so shoulder surfing or a fraudulent card-reader in the hotel are the possible causes of a 3rd party gaining access to the PIN. This is because as I already stated chip n pin is inherently unsafe and non-secure. Access to the hotel room was gained by theft, i.e. pick-pocketing the hotel room key from her husband's jacket so in the grand scheme of things, the bank and yourself must believe the OP was complicit in this crime too. I'd also question the effectiveness of hotel security as they allowed multiple crimes to be committed on their property against one of the guests.

... If I leave my car keys unattended and my car is stolen. I don't go back to the car manufacturer demanding the value of my car back. I go to the police as it is a criminal matter and not the fault of the car manufacturer as I was negligent. ...

The situation you describe is not analogous with OP's. An analogy would be if you used your electronic key-fob to lock your car and thieves intercepted and decoded the signal on a mobile-phone and stole your car using this intercepted data, then I guess you'd be screaming down the phone at the dealer (not at the manufacturer as you have no contract with the manufacturer) to get your car back or a replacement.

So there you have it, bank customer blameless, bank and hotel both culpable in my view and the case against the bank in particular is water-tight, despite all the wriggling they might try.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....

That is very interesting and I think that you could challenge it. I have started a separate thread on it here:

Ombudsman refusing to hear case where fraud is involved

 

[BazzaDP]

I like chip and pin. I like being able to bank on my own time I like automated transactions. So it's not just the bank's driving this. Some of us customers want this too.

We've no idea how the pin was discovered but, unless it was due to inadequate security by the bank, you can't really hold them accountable by default. Saying the bank is liable for shoulder surfing is laughable.

If I withdraw cash and get mugged is that the bank's fault too for not providing security along with the cash?

OP keep raising it with the bank in a reasonable manner as others with saner heads have advised and there's a good (but not definite) chance they will refund as a goodwill gesture. Especially as you seem to already have evidence it was fraud.

 

[WANDE14]

Thank you all for your replies. I qas clueless as to what to do or where to go next. I am writing up an email here now to email to the customer relations. will keep you updated.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi D4B

There is no hurry with your complaint. Reflect on it a bit more.

I think you should make it more formal - in writing rather than by email.

I think you should check out the cases on the Ombudsman website to see if you can learn anything from them.

Maybe even check out the UK Ombudsman website.

Maybe the Irish Banking and Payments Services group has a policy on it. Maybe even BoI has a policy on it.

For example, if the pattern of transactions was unusual, the bank's fraud detection system should have stopped some of the transactions.

Do a bit more research and then make your submission.

I am not convinced that the FSO has no role here if BoI rejects your complaint. So bear in mind that you should be making a very comprehensive submission which could be the basis of your submission to the FSO as well.

Also wait a while to see if the Gardaí come up with anything.

Brendan

 

[mathepac]

I like chip and pin. I like being able to bank on my own time I like automated transactions. So it's not just the bank's driving this. Some of us customers want this too. ...

It has its benefits and attractions no doubt, but I know I didn't write to any of my banks saying "I want chip n pin and I want it NOW and I accept that the product is grossly inadequate from a security perspective and I accept all the risks and if I'm a pauper because of your plastic card, I will hold you blameless."

Chip n pin was launched on the unsuspecting public on the heels of a massive advertising campaign which sold it as the greatest thing since sliced pan. No-one asked for it, demand was created by advertising. There are few if any real benefits for the user (other than doing for free work that bank tellers used to get paid for) but a massive payoff for the banks in moving business away from bricks and mortar branches.

... We've no idea how the pin was discovered but, unless it was due to inadequate security by the bank, you can't really hold them accountable by default. Saying the bank is liable for shoulder surfing is laughable. ...

The fact that the PIN was discovered despite the customer not writing it down or giving it to anyone is all the evidence you need that chip n pin is inherently insecure, therefore they are accountable

The customer was not negligent but had funds stolen because both the hotel and bank security measures combined failed to protect them from theft. A series of crimes, with evidence in support of them being perpetrated against the hotel guest & bank customer, resulted in the OP losing money. It is insane that the bank would think they can just wipe their hands and say it was the customer's fault and not their's.

I'm not sure who said shoulder surfing was the bank's liability, but the activity drives a coach and horses through the "security" of chip n pin card operations.

... If I withdraw cash and get mugged is that the bank's fault too for not providing security along with the cash? ...

I have no idea. Maybe you need to start a new thread to get an answer.

... OP keep raising it with the bank in a reasonable manner as others with saner heads have advised and there's a good (but not definite) chance they will refund as a goodwill gesture. Especially as you seem to already have evidence it was fraud.

I'm not sure who the saner heads are meant to belong to, but if the OP has the evidence that fraud was committed, then the bank has no need to make a "goodwill gesture" - they pay out on the basis that the customer was blameless and defrauded of funds due to a series of crimes and the bank's inadequate security on chip n pin cards.

 

[mathepac]

Here is one of the [broken link removed] perpetrated against a bank customer in Roscommon. No doubt the customer is at fault here too.

 

[WANDE14]

Hi D4B

There is no hurry with your complaint. Reflect on it a bit more.

I think you should make it more formal - in writing rather than by email.

I think you should check out the cases on the Ombudsman website to see if you can learn anything from them.

Maybe even check out the UK Ombudsman website.

Maybe the Irish Banking and Payments Services group has a policy on it. Maybe even BoI has a policy on it.

For example, if the pattern of transactions was unusual, the bank's fraud detection system should have stopped some of the transactions.

Do a bit more research and then make your submission.

I am not convinced that the FSO has no role here if BoI rejects your complaint. So bear in mind that you should be making a very comprehensive submission which could be the basis of your submission to the FSO as well.

Also wait a while to see if the Gardaí come up with anything.

Brendan

Thanks Brendan. The bank is PTSB. A friend of mine told me this evening that her friend had 1200 taken from her acc at Xmas whilst on a night out. Perp again gained access to her pIn. It took 8 weeks and a lot of persistentence but she got her money from bank. She told them the garda had footage of him using her card etc. The Guard dealing with our case is off until Thursday so I will touch base with him then.

I will indeed send a letter rather than email. I just want to make sure I make sense and word it correctly. I am useless at these kind of things and know nothing about it.

The hotel have refunded our stay and gave us a cheque for 500 to put towards the cost of jewellery taken. Though there was no staff in the leisure centre. The thief found our room no from the sign in sheet

 

[WANDE14]

It has its benefits and attractions no doubt, but I know I didn't write to any of my banks saying "I want chip n pin and I want it NOW and I accept that the product is grossly inadequate from a security perspective and I accept all the risks and if I'm a pauper because of your plastic card, I will hold you blameless."

Chip n pin was launched on the unsuspecting public on the heels of a massive advertising campaign which sold it as the greatest thing since sliced pan. No-one asked for it, demand was created by advertising. There are few if any real benefits for the user (other than doing for free work that bank tellers used to get paid for) but a massive payoff for the banks in moving business away from bricks and mortar branches.
The fact that the PIN was discovered despite the customer not writing it down or giving it to anyone is all the evidence you need that chip n pin is inherently insecure, therefore they are accountable

The customer was not negligent but had funds stolen because both the hotel and bank security measures combined failed to protect them from theft. A series of crimes, with evidence in support of them being perpetrated against the hotel guest & bank customer, resulted in the OP losing money. It is insane that the bank would think they can just wipe their hands and say it was the customer's fault and not their's.

I'm not sure who said shoulder surfing was the bank's liability, but the activity drives a coach and horses through the "security" of chip n pin card operations.
I have no idea. Maybe you need to start a new thread to get an answer.
I'm not sure who the saner heads are meant to belong to, but if the OP has the evidence that fraud was committed, then the bank has no need to make a "goodwill gesture" - they pay out on the basis that the customer was blameless and defrauded of funds due to a series of crimes and the bank's inadequate security on chip n pin cards.

Thanks for your reply mathepac. You have highlighted some great points which help make it all a lot more sense to me .you guys are so helpful x

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi D4B

Check out the Ombudsman's guide to making a complaint to your financial services provider:

[broken link removed]

Brendan

 

[STEINER]

While I have nothing much to help specifically with your problem, you raise some issues re hotels.

I stay in various hotels up and down the country for leisure, weddings, w/e breaks etc. Last month there was no safe in the 4 star hotel room and no locks on the leisure centre changing lockers, and yes the sign in sheet was there for anyone to look at with room numbers etc. So, what happened to you could have happened to me.

The hotel have refunded our stay and gave us a cheque for 500 to put towards the cost of jewellery taken. Though there was no staff in the leisure centre. The thief found our room no from the sign in sheet

Anyone can break into a hotel room and steal.

You say you reported the theft to bank within 10 minutes. Did the fraudulent transactions occur after you reported to bank?

 

[WANDE14]

While I have nothing much to help specifically with your problem, you raise some issues re hotels.

I stay in various hotels up and down the country for leisure, weddings, w/e breaks etc. Last month there was no safe in the 4 star hotel room and no locks on the leisure centre changing lockers, and yes the sign in sheet was there for anyone to look at with room numbers etc. So, what happened to you could have happened to me.


Anyone can break into a hotel room and steal.

You say you reported the theft to bank within 10 minutes. Did the fraudulent transactions occur after you reported to bank?

No the transactions were made prior. By the time We got out of pool and up to our room he had been and gone straight across the road to the shopping ctr

 

[Gerry Canning]

D4B.

1. You were robbed,
2. You did not disclose or have your PIN number written down.
.......................................
Keep after PTSB on this case .

My daughter got her purse lifted, 3 times the thief tried to use it in an ATM.
What police told her was thief watched her withdraw funds from ATM , thief had a good idea of guessing on her numbers and tried card. Luckily thief didn,t guess the 4 numbers.
........................
I just cannot see how Bank can not refund.

 

[BazzaDP]

I agree they were robbed. And I am sympathetic to that. But I'm struggling to see why this is the bank's fault and therefore why they should pay the money back? That would mean either the bank would lose out instead of the customer, or the shop keeper if the bank refused to pay them (though not sure how they could do this if PIN was used?). Either is obviously better for the OP but that doesn't mean that's what will or even should happen.

Unless the bank was negligent (i.e. gave out the money with no PIN or with incorrect PIN, or had a weakness in their PINs or procedures, or accepted a large payment from the same card from two different sides of the world within seconds of each other, or allowed a card skimmer to be attached to their ATM...etc.) then this is an unfortunate incident but not sure they are liable unless there's some specific consumer protection for card fraud that I'm not aware of? It works differently with Credit Cards as the credit card company is jointly liable for any fraud - but you pay for that protection in higher fees and interest charges.

I do not agree that PINs are inherently insecure. I think scrawling your name in a vaguely identical manner to the signature any thief has a copy of, on the back of a card they've snatched is much more insecure. But maybe that's just me.

Saying all that I think the bank will most likely pay out as a gesture of good will. Best of luck OP and hope for your sake they do.

 

[WANDE14]

Hi everyone.

Just to keep you updated. We have been back and forth with the bank. The guards told us they never looked in to our case with them so we have also argued that with them. It's a garda investigation and they should have been contacted in relation to the transactions.

The bank phoned me today to tell me that they are sending documents out for us to get signed by the gardai. I told them we don't live in Galway but they said that's fine any garda station will suffice.

Not sure if this is a step in the right direction or not.


Can I also ask you- we have yet to lodge the 'goodwill gesture' cheque of 500 from the hotel. They had originally told us they would cover the cost of our jewellery. Then they told us that they wouldn't but they would give us something. The gave us less that half. Do you think we should accept gracefully? /

 

[elcato]

Doed your house insurance cover the cost of any jewelery theft outside the home ? Worth checking.

 

[WANDE14]

Elcato

Unfortunately the items that are covered were not taken. Just our luck needless to say we have changed our insurance now.

 

[browtal]

Brendan I am 100% sure my pin was not written down anywhere. I have the same pin with 12 years and it is not an easy one to guess either. I understand that this is not the banks fault but it's a fraudulent case, is it not?

I am not holding hope we will get reimbursed. I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....

I had a friend who was followed and subsequently her card was stolen. They two involved then withdrew considerable amount of money from her account.
Following much writing and phoning she sent details to the Ombudsman who acted on her behalf and she got full refund, after many months.
Browtal

 

[WANDE14]

T

I had a friend who was followed and subsequently her card was stolen. They two involved then withdrew considerable amount of money from her account.
Following much writing and phoning she sent details to the Ombudsman who acted on her behalf and she got full refund, after many months.
Browtal

Thank you Browtal, after an appeal with the bank jsut today we recieved another refusal letter so I am going to try the Ombudsman again

 

[jim]

As much as I dislike banks common sense suggests to me that the bank should not have to pay for ones negligEnce. Why does the bank need to refund you they haven't done anything wrong.

Also what is stopping anybody from walking into their bank and claiming that someone had obtained their pin and extracted 100k from their a/c? And then reuesting the bank pays you,in effect, that 100k. Makes no sense to me.

The only two things that could have happened here is you are fraudulently claiming that your pin and card was stolen. Or it was in fCt stolen in which case you were negligent.