Bank refusing to refund fraudulent debit card transactions - thief had pin

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WANDE14

Registered User
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41
Hi there.

Unfortunately while celebrating our anniversary a couple of weeks ago we were the target for a thief. He followed us and got our hotel key from my husbands pocket and got in to our hotel room and wiped us clean. He went on a shopping trip for himself and for the over of God cannot understand how he had our pin no. The guards assumed he followed us for the day as we used the laser card for shopping and cash withdrawals all that day.

Anyway after filing the claim the bank are now refusing to refund the money as the thief had the pin number. And that it had to have been disclosed in some form. We have no idea how he knew the pin. We don't even live in that county!!!! Devastated here he got almost 1300 from our account. :( :(
 
That's often the bank's first and standard response to such issues. Are you absolutely sure that the PIN was not written down anywhere or was not an easily recognizable PIN? eg, 0000 or 9999 or a date of birth?

Secondly, did you report it straight away once you know the card was missing or did you wait a period of time before reporting it?

Lastly you say it was a Laser card, I presume you mean a Visa Debit card
 
It's very tough, but you can see it from the bank's point of view. He had the pin. They can't refund you those transactions.
 
I understand, but when it is absolutley legitimate I am so upset over it. We reported the cards missing straight away, within 10 mins of realising that our wallets were gone we were on the phone. And yes I mean Laser debit card sorry.

Is there any point in going any further about it, or do I dispute do you think?

Thanks for your replies x
 
Absolutely dispute it, you have nothing to lose.

The bank has to prove you were negligent.

the attached may help as well.


Make sure you raise you complaint in writing.
 
Sorry I meant Debit card.

It was Permanent TSB

The thief went to the shopping centre across the road from the hotel so I guess we were near enough :( We were in the swimming pool while he did it :(

The Garda have footage of him in the hotel and also in the pharmacy where he went to make transactions.

I am trying to write up a dispute letter here, but trying to word it correct is a nightmare
 
The only way i got my money back when my card was skimmed and used in England was to report the bank to the Financial Regulator.

Then 'as a sign of goodwill' they refunded my money.
 
Did you use the card and pin anywhere in the hotel? Is it possible the person who took it is a staff member?
 
Hi D4B
Sorry to hear of your incident,but the banks will try to wiggle out of paying you back any way they can, keep on going though,Im surprised at some of the comments you got here,maybe they work for the banks.

Pat
 
My mother failed to get any money back when something similar happened to her. She was seen entering her number on the card machine in Lidl and then her wallet was stolen and the card used. The way the card machines in supermarkets are placed it's tricky enough to hide the keypad from onlookers.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
It's very tough, but you can see it from the bank's point of view. He had the pin. They can't refund you those transactions.
Click to expand...

I would agree with Brendan on this issue. Banks will only refund customers if their security systems have been breached. In this case, the thief somehow obtained your PIN number and removed money from your account. I can't see how this is the Banks fault?

I would be very surprised if your Bank reinburses your loss.
 
Of course the bank is at fault. They want rid of cash handling costs, they want rid of face-to-face customers, they want automated transactions and processes. That being the case, let them invest in systems that protect their customers from loss. The banks are the ones driving change here so they have the responsibility to make client money safe.

Simple things like the real-time detection and flagging of unusual patterns of spending or cash withdrawals with the banks' security department are easily implemented. Biometric testing of the card-holder / customer at terminals is now affordable (lap-tops from IBM/Lenovo have had this feature for years, new model iPhones have it now) via finger-print or eye-scan is a must. There is a drive for contactless payment systems with NO PIN required - who owns responsibility for security on these systems?

Chip n pin was heralded as the greatest security invention since the lock and key yet it is simple to circumvent. Shoulder surfing or hacking ATM terminals to install video cameras or skimming devices are now common-place activities yet the banks refuse to accept that they are the simplest means of stealing money and won't approach Siemens-Nixdorf or other suppliers to improve security at cash-machine or terminal lobbies.

The banks want profits to increase - IMO they cannot do this by simply removing costs and doing a Pontius Pilate when "security systems" fail or were never there to begin with.

Do not lie down or be bullied by these organisations, fight them; they are in the wrong.
 
I meant to add that when Ulster Bank farmed out their IT systems to some Mickey Mouse off-shore company in the interests of saving on costs, that company couldn't test or manage the implementation a software change, so there was chaos for Ulster bank customers and their customers / employees in turn. Who will hold the banks to account for their consistent failures in security, IT implementation, lack of honesty and mis-management? The customer pays for the services, pays again when the banks fail and yet again pays because the only security they supply is to their boards of directors. Even their share-holders get shafted.
 
Brendan I am 100% sure my pin was not written down anywhere. I have the same pin with 12 years and it is not an easy one to guess either. I understand that this is not the banks fault but it's a fraudulent case, is it not?

I am not holding hope we will get reimbursed. I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....
 
H
Sunny said:
Did you use the card and pin anywhere in the hotel? Is it possible the person who took it is a staff member?
Click to expand...

Sunny we paid when we got to the hotel. They have the thief on cctv but he is not known to the garda or the hotel unfortunately. Needle in a haystack! :(
 
D4B said:
Brendan I am 100% sure my pin was not written down anywhere. I have the same pin with 12 years and it is not an easy one to guess either. I understand that this is not the banks fault but it's a fraudulent case, is it not?

I am not holding hope we will get reimbursed. I called the financial ombudsman and they unfortunately said that because it is fraud they cannot get involved. It's a matter for the garda. .....
Click to expand...

The Ombudsman will only get involved once the bank's complaints process has been exhausted and I'm not sure if they deal with frauds. You should ask the bank for a copy of their complaints procedures and then respond and state the facts. You should ask the bank to outline how they believe you were at fault. You need to kick up a stink but do so without getting emotive or complaining about some of the issues some other posters have raised on here. Those issues are irrelevant to the problem in hand and you will look like a crank.

Put everything in writing. You should also state how disappointed you are as a long standing customer etc etc and if you have any investments or savings with the bank, you should also threaten to take your entire business away from them

You need to go to war with the bank here.
 
mathepac said:
Of course the bank is at fault. They want rid of cash handling costs, they want rid of face-to-face customers, they want automated transactions and processes. That being the case, let them invest in systems that protect their customers from loss. The banks are the ones driving change here so they have the responsibility to make client money safe.

Simple things like the real-time detection and flagging of unusual patterns of spending or cash withdrawals with the banks' security department are easily implemented. Biometric testing of the card-holder / customer at terminals is now affordable (lap-tops from IBM/Lenovo have had this feature for years, new model iPhones have it now) via finger-print or eye-scan is a must. There is a drive for contactless payment systems with NO PIN required - who owns responsibility for security on these systems?

Chip n pin was heralded as the greatest security invention since the lock and key yet it is simple to circumvent. Shoulder surfing or hacking ATM terminals to install video cameras or skimming devices are now common-place activities yet the banks refuse to accept that they are the simplest means of stealing money and won't approach Siemens-Nixdorf or other suppliers to improve security at cash-machine or terminal lobbies.

The banks want profits to increase - IMO they cannot do this by simply removing costs and doing a Pontius Pilate when "security systems" fail or were never there to begin with.
Click to expand...

Mathepac, I would generally agree with all of your points above however they are irrelevant in this case. The Bank provided a security system which the OP negated by leaving their cards unattended and allowing their PIN number to be discovered by a third party.

If I leave my car keys unattended and my car is stolen. I don't go back to the car manufacturer demanding the value of my car back. I go to the police as it is a criminal matter and not the fault of the car manufacturer as I was negligent.

As much as we would like to, we can't blame the Banks for all the woes in this country. :D
 
thedaddyman said:
The Ombudsman will only get involved once the bank's complaints process has been exhausted and I'm not sure if they deal with frauds. You should ask the bank for a copy of their complaints procedures and then respond and state the facts.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I did before I went to the ombudsman. Followed up with the ombudsman after i went through all the complaints process with the Bank.
 
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