Thank you - Dunnes Stores.

[Latrade]

IBEC has a licence to negotiate as a union and so it is one.
I wasn’t aware that the employee trade unions were exempt from the new legislation on lobbying. That seems ridiculous as they are the biggest, most powerful and most influential lobby groups in the country. If anything proves their power it is that exemption.
We should stop calling lobby groups social partners. Our democracy has been undermined enough over the last decade and a half.

It is one in part under its old FUE scope, the lobbying and policy work is not under the scope of a union. And as its the internet and we love technicalities, social partners are recognised at a national and European level as representatives of agreed interested parties (usually employers and empployees, but stretches to NGOs). That is different to lobbying as social partner work tends to be in an official minuted and documented capacity always under the freedom of information act, lobbying less so and is much more cloak and dagger. Social partners do lobby, but their submissions and positions are usually documented and publically available.

Anyway, for full disclosure, I'm ex-ibec, so while not biased towards them (I'm ex-union too), I think the actual influence of both social partners is overestimated, that may be presuming that ministers and senior civil servants listen to reasoned, rational arguments.

Back to the OT, i think there is much kudos to the demonstrators, how much impact it has is debateable. The problems with mandatory union recognition are considerable which is part of the reason that it has taken so long in the programme of government to come about. There are plenty of employers who operate very well, consult with their employees, offer fair terms and conditions, even exceed most t&cs and do so without recognising unions. Most of the bigger private employers do not recognise trade unions and yet seem to operate without any industrial relations issues.

As to zero hours, again, many employers offer these contracts and on its own zero hour contracts are not a bad thing. In many cases where the hours become more fixed, they offer full contracts. I do agree however that they are too easy to exploit and behave unethically around, but we have to be careful in that the service industry would suffer if it couldn't offer zero hour contracts at least initially.

 

[Purple]

It is one in part under its old FUE scope, the lobbying and policy work is not under the scope of a union. And as its the internet and we love technicalities, social partners are recognised at a national and European level as representatives of agreed interested parties (usually employers and empployees, but stretches to NGOs). That is different to lobbying as social partner work tends to be in an official minuted and documented capacity always under the freedom of information act, lobbying less so and is much more cloak and dagger. Social partners do lobby, but their submissions and positions are usually documented and publically available.

I agree that they are different in theory but a rose by any other name and all that. Everyone who was involved in the discussion and decision to define them was either a union activist or member, a lobbyist or a member of an NGO.

Anyway, for full disclosure, I'm ex-ibec, so while not biased towards them (I'm ex-union too), I think the actual influence of both social partners is overestimated, that may be presuming that ministers and senior civil servants listen to reasoned, rational arguments.

I agree that they have been dethroned since the Bertie days when they were in their pomp and effectively ran the country. It is very much to FG’s credit that they have resisted these anti-democratic influences.

The problems with mandatory union recognition are considerable which is part of the reason that it has taken so long in the programme of government to come about. There are plenty of employers who operate very well, consult with their employees, offer fair terms and conditions, even exceed most t&cs and do so without recognising unions. Most of the bigger private employers do not recognise trade unions and yet seem to operate without any industrial relations issues.

I agree. Unions foster an atmosphere of division and hostility and seek to create a “them and us” mentality between different employees, depending on whether the union deems those employees to be “wurkers” or “management”. It is destructive and Dickensian and such ideologically driven divisiveness has no place in the modern world.

As to zero hours, again, many employers offer these contracts and on its own zero hour contracts are not a bad thing. In many cases where the hours become more fixed, they offer full contracts. I do agree however that they are too easy to exploit and behave unethically around, but we have to be careful in that the service industry would suffer if it couldn't offer zero hour contracts at least initially.

It is because they are so easy to exploit that they need to be, at the very least, radically changed.

 

[The_Banker]

Looks like Dunnes have up'd the anti... http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...rs-who-went-on-strike-union-alleges-1.2169020

 

[Leper]

I was expecting this from lower management in Dunnes Stores. Their managing regime is based on hopping off each soft target instead of any kind of praise (which works better). These low grade managers have some mistaken aura about them that this makes their presence almost divine. Officers in the SS were the same and you know where they ended up when captured.

It was said earlier on this thread that most employers do not behave like this. This is true, but the like of Dunnes behaving in such a way will inspire others to abuse their position as good managers.

We have a supermarket regime in Ireland that closed down nearly every corner shop. They claim to be good giving employment. In the past few months I saw three retail outlets close when Tesco moved in with a small supermarket employing less people than were working in the outlets.

We now have seven day a week shopping forever. Only the recession prevented more widescale 24 hour shopping. Even the greedy Spaniards have not jumped on this greed bandwagon. I think it is time we restored Ireland back to the people of Ireland and close the damn supermarkets on Sundays.

 

[Latrade]

I was expecting this from lower management in Dunnes Stores. Their managing regime is based on hopping off each soft target instead of any kind of praise (which works better). These low grade managers have some mistaken aura about them that this makes their presence almost divine. Officers in the SS were the same and you know where they ended up when captured.

It was said earlier on this thread that most employers do not behave like this. This is true, but the like of Dunnes behaving in such a way will inspire others to abuse their position as good managers.

Ok, nazi allusions aside, I'm not sure how good managers operating in different companies with different policies and different cultures will be inspired to do the same. In case you haven't paid attention to operating results for Dunnes competitors, they're doing pretty well without copying Dunnes or being anything like Dunnes. I doubt they're likely to take on such bad PR and throw out their own good procedures based upon the news reports of Dunnes.

We now have seven day a week shopping forever. Only the recession prevented more widescale 24 hour shopping. Even the greedy Spaniards have not jumped on this greed bandwagon. I think it is time we restored Ireland back to the people of Ireland and close the damn supermarkets on Sundays.

Ok, now we're overlooking both a nazi reference and bizarre reference to greedy Spaniards...however, yes let's go back to the good old days why not. Except Sunday is a good day for us to do our shopping because we both work 5 days a week and its hard to organise a week day to do our shopping with a family to feed when we get home. Changes in shopping habits haven't been driven by greed, they've been driven by demand. Families now tend to have both parents working and in some cases working long hours or shifts. The move to weekends, 24 hour, etc shopping was driven by convinence for people and consumers. It isn't greed that means I do my shopping on a Sunday morning, it is necessity.

I'm sure the employees don't mind the Sunday premium though.

 

[Purple]

I’ll be working this Sunday. I’ll be driving to Scotland for meetings on Monday morning.
I have to drive as I’m not allowed to fly at the moment for medical reasons. That doesn’t make me greedy (I may well be greedy but it’s not the Sunday working that makes me so ).

In days gone by when women stayed at home with the kids and were available to do the shopping during the week Sunday opening was not necessary. Society has changed, for good or ill, but it’s not the result of greed.

 

[Leo]

We now have seven day a week shopping forever. Only the recession prevented more widescale 24 hour shopping. Even the greedy Spaniards have not jumped on this greed bandwagon. I think it is time we restored Ireland back to the people of Ireland and close the damn supermarkets on Sundays.

As a consumer I'm very happy we have progressed. Do you want to go back to a time when businesses only operated 9-5 Monday to Friday, housewives did all the household shopping, and sure they'd nothing better to be doing anyway???

Supermarkets opening longer is in response to consumer demand. To suggest it's some kind of greed bandwagon, and comparing Dunnes management to the SS demeans your argument to a rant.

 

[Leper]

As a consumer I'm very happy we have progressed. Do you want to go back to a time when businesses only operated 9-5 Monday to Friday, housewives did all the household shopping, and sure they'd nothing better to be doing anyway???

Supermarkets opening longer is in response to consumer demand. To suggest it's some kind of greed bandwagon, and comparing Dunnes management to the SS demeans your argument to a rant.

Longer supermarket hours is not progression. I have no problem with supermarkets being open 8am - 6pm Monday to Saturday. I never said anything sexist like you are suggesting (although humorously). Supermarkets extending their hours because of "consumer demand" - You mean because of greater profits - consumer demand, my hat! Dunnes lower management have always been pretty anti people in their dealings. Have a chat with any of their fulltime employees and you will see what I mean. Look at today's newspaper for example i.e. a lesson on how not to deal with staff.

For the record I have always looked on Sunday as a special day where you had time for yourself, your family and a worthwhile break from the normal humdrum. Unfortunately, Sunday is now only an extended trading day to make more profit.

 

[Purple]

Supermarkets extending their hours because of "consumer demand" - You mean because of greater profits - consumer demand, my hat!

If there was no consumer demand then they wouldn't make more profit. Almost all improvements in service and quality are driven by the desire to make more profit. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Leper]

Ok, nazi allusions aside, I'm not sure how good managers operating in different companies with different policies and different cultures will be inspired to do the same. In case you haven't paid attention to operating results for Dunnes competitors, they're doing pretty well without copying Dunnes or being anything like Dunnes. I doubt they're likely to take on such bad PR and throw out their own good procedures based upon the news reports of Dunnes.



Ok, now we're overlooking both a nazi reference and bizarre reference to greedy Spaniards...however, yes let's go back to the good old days why not. Except Sunday is a good day for us to do our shopping because we both work 5 days a week and its hard to organise a week day to do our shopping with a family to feed when we get home. Changes in shopping habits haven't been driven by greed, they've been driven by demand. Families now tend to have both parents working and in some cases working long hours or shifts. The move to weekends, 24 hour, etc shopping was driven by convinence for people and consumers. It isn't greed that means I do my shopping on a Sunday morning, it is necessity.

I'm sure the employees don't mind the Sunday premium though.

1. You don't know how other companies will behave because of the likes of Dunnes. Unfortunately, I have seen companies run well, and then the son takes over and suddenly and employee friendly company turns into a near prison camp regime for some reason or other.
2. Protect me from people who see Sunday as a shopping day. Just imagine the highlight of your week - shopping in Dunnes or Lidl!
3. Twenty four hour shopping had nothing to do with convenience whatsoever, it's profit repeat profit.

Can anybody say what the Sunday Premium Rate is in supermarkets?

 

[Leper]

If there was no consumer demand then they wouldn't make more profit. Almost all improvements in service and quality are driven by the desire to make more profit. There is nothing wrong with that.

There are other more family friendly ways of making profit. What you are referring to is just greed on behalf of supermarkets.

 

[Purple]

There are other more family friendly ways of making profit. What you are referring to is just greed on behalf of supermarkets.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one. We're both too long in the tooth to change!

 

[Sunny]

1. You don't know how other companies will behave because of the likes of Dunnes. Unfortunately, I have seen companies run well, and then the son takes over and suddenly and employee friendly company turns into a near prison camp regime for some reason or other.
2. Protect me from people who see Sunday as a shopping day. Just imagine the highlight of your week - shopping in Dunnes or Lidl!
3. Twenty four hour shopping had nothing to do with convenience whatsoever, it's profit repeat profit.

Can anybody say what the Sunday Premium Rate is in supermarkets?

So you and your family never leave your house on a Sunday? You never buy petrol on a Sunday for one of those family trips? You never buy your kids an ice cream from a little shop? You have never gone for a drink? You have never visited a tourist attraction? You have never stayed in a hotel on a Sunday? You have never bought a Sunday newspaper from your local shop? You have never got public transport on a Sunday? You have never attended a sporting event on a Sunday? Do you need me to go on?? Why are supermarkets different to every other part of the economy?

And I don't know anyone who views Sunday as a shopping day and a trip to Lidl as a highlight of the week. Maybe instead of looking down your nose at other people who might pop into a supermarket on a Sunday (may they burn in hell), you should spend more looking at yourself and your ridiculous comparisons between Dunnes Stores and Nazi Prison Guards and your strange slur on Spanish people....

 

[Leper]

So you and your family never leave your house on a Sunday? You never buy petrol on a Sunday for one of those family trips? You never buy your kids an ice cream from a little shop? You have never gone for a drink? You have never visited a tourist attraction? You have never stayed in a hotel on a Sunday? You have never bought a Sunday newspaper from your local shop? You have never got public transport on a Sunday? You have never attended a sporting event on a Sunday? Do you need me to go on?? Why are supermarkets different to every other part of the economy?

And I don't know anyone who views Sunday as a shopping day and a trip to Lidl as a highlight of the week. Maybe instead of looking down your nose at other people who might pop into a supermarket on a Sunday (may they burn in hell), you should spend more looking at yourself and your ridiculous comparisons between Dunnes Stores and Nazi Prison Guards and your strange slur on Spanish people....

Sunny what are you talking about? Of course we leave the house on Sunday (and every Sunday for that matter), but it is not to compete for parking space in some supermarket carpark where many of our unimaginative couples think this is the highlight of the week. Of course I've bought ice cream on Sunday in that shop down the road. I have been even known to visit a hotel or a bar on Sundays. But, supermarket shopping is not an enjoyable experience as the likes of Dunnes inform us. Supermarket shopping is a modern necessity, but no so on Sundays. The Irish were always known as a care free people. That has changed. Our image has been raped and now the nation has been turned into slaves to advertising trying to decide on what processed sliced pan to buy. Sunday (to me) is a day where you get out and enjoy the day. People have different ways of doing this, but supermarket shopping? I'm trying to imagine Purple and yourself discussing the texture of St-Bernard spread while waiting in the aisles for the check out operator to try and get through your stuff.

I never looked down my nose at anybody. If you want to pop into a supermarket for an hour, then do it, but know why you are doing it. It is about profit and nothing else and at the expense at what was our way of life. Let's get back to the Spaniards. I lived in Andalucía for quite some time. You won't see them opening supermarkets on Sunday. Sometimes they open for 3 or 4 hours on Sundays on the Costas during the high tourist season. But, for the rest of the year forget about the main Spanish supermarkets opening. I don't know how you came up with the word "slur."

The words to supply the demand have been used on this thread. Dunnes (down the road from me) used to open until midnight all week before the recession. Soon after the recession started they closed much earlier and have remained with the earlier hours since. You see those later hours were unprofitable. So, it is about profit, after all.

I know I've hogged this thread and probably to the rolled eyes of the OP (Déise Blue). I've probably ruffled a few feathers too. But, I genuinely think there is a better way forward and risking swapping paint with other carpark users to fight a way through a supermarket is my idea of how not to spend a worthwhile Sunday.

 

[Leo]

Longer supermarket hours is not progression. I have no problem with supermarkets being open 8am - 6pm Monday to Saturday.

But 8am-6pm Monday to Saturday don't suit me. So in your regressive utopia, am I expected to do my grocery shopping in convenience stores? Or should all businesses only operate during the above hours? What's so special about supermarkets that they are singled out for opening outside these hours?

I was in a supermarket at 9:30pm last night, there were many more staff then customers about. So the profit margins during those late hours are way down on the busy periods. If this were purely a greed play, all supermarkets would have stuck with the old opening hours which would ensure maximum profitability during the hours they are open. They'd also need a lot fewer staff, as they'd only have one shift each day.

For the record I have always looked on Sunday as a special day where you had time for yourself, your family and a worthwhile break from the normal humdrum. Unfortunately, Sunday is now only an extended trading day to make more profit.

You don't need to inconvenience everyone else to have your special day, that's a matter of personal choice. All you have to do is not spend any money, anywhere.

If your supermarket experience is the battle you make out, perhaps it's time to look at the alternatives. Supervalu at 9:30pm was the essence of convenience by the way, no queues for anything, breezed through in a few minutes. Beats battling for an hour on a busy Saturday so I can dedicate that to some quality time

 

[Purple]

I never do my shopping on Sundays. I go to the Lidl near where I work at lunchtime.
I don't think that makes me any better than people who do their shopping on Sundays.
To say supermarket Sunday opening is all about greed is just silly as the same can apply to any other business that opens on a Sunday.

Leper, what's your view on shopping centres opening on Sunday? Should only the restaurants, coffee shops, cinemas and other businesses that are based on entertainment be allowed to open whereas grocery shops should be closed? What about cafe's that also sell produce? I'm not trying to be glib it's just that the genie is out of the bottle and the way we live has changed. I don't think it's necessarily worse though.

People are free to choose to work on Sunday or not work on Sunday. If you want more power as an employee then make yourself more skilled and more valuable to your employer or other potential employers.
I work in a sector with constant skills shortages, where someone could walk out this morning and have another job by lunch time. That's because they are skilled and their labour is valuable. If you choose to not bother acquiring skills then it's your own fault if you are not valued. That doesn't excuse exploitation but it does mean that you have chosen to not empower yourself.

 

[Leper]

I think I have answered all the questions poised in previous posts. You said you never do shopping on Sundays. And fair enough! - Neither do I. We are all in a rat race whether we know it or not. We can succomb as do most. Or we can try and get a break from the rat race. I believe the country has lost the run of itself opening the likes of shopping centres on Sundays. No matter what I say here will result in this being reversed. So I am not going to waste my time. But, I believe Sunday should be reserved as a day of rest where quality family time can be used and for that matter personal time also. If this means going to a sporting event (which I do on most Sundays), or going to a pub/restaurant/hotel/cinema etc then so be it.

But, those looking forward to spending Sunday evening in Idly-Didly (Aldi-Lidl) or such like, protect me from such people. But, they are entitled to fill their Sundays as they see fit.

 

[Sunny]

So you have no problem with people being forced to work in bars, cinemas, restaurants on a Sunday because they are facilitating your entertainment and family enjoyment but supermarkets that open on a Sunday are profit greedy businesses that have ruined our beautiful country.

So what if people want to go to a shopping centre. I avoid them every day of the week but saying something like 'protect me from such people' who do go for whatever reason on a Sunday is pathetic. 'Such people' is such a rude and ignorant phrase.

 

[Leper]

So you have no problem with people being forced to work in bars, cinemas, restaurants on a Sunday because they are facilitating your entertainment and family enjoyment but supermarkets that open on a Sunday are profit greedy businesses that have ruined our beautiful country.

So what if people want to go to a shopping centre. I avoid them every day of the week but saying something like 'protect me from such people' who do go for whatever reason on a Sunday is pathetic. 'Such people' is such a rude and ignorant phrase.

Hi Sunny, Bars, cinemas, restaurants etc are places within the hospitality sector and as far as I am concerned and must be open on Sundays. I never realised until you informed me that they are being forced to work in such places. I'm not advocating that dear old Ireland should close down completely on Sundays. I am supporting that there should be a day where people can have some quality time to enjoy themselves and share in all that is good about themselves. This could involve going to sporting events, cinema etc. If people want to spend Sunday evenings in supermarkets, let them have their shopping experience; they can camp in Idly-Didly or some other forlorn grocery laden aisles as far as I am concerned, but I think there are better ways of enjoying oneself. I believe there are enough shopping hours over the other six days to satisfy anybody's lust for buying St-Bernard 0.50c processed sliced pans or a punnet of southern Spain plastic tunnel grown off season strawberries showered daily with treated Iberian urine.

Sunny, you are entitled to your opinion and long may you have it, but don't forget I am entitled to my opinion also. The words "such people" are not rude or ignorant.Enjoy your shopping experience in whatever day you want.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Leper you do realise (or do you?) that people do not enjoy grocery shopping - it is a necessary evil to ensure that one has food in ones house! This idea you have that people look forward to doing their grocery shopping on a Sunday (or any other day of the week) is frankly just showing up your own blinkered view of the world rather than portraying any reality. Just think yourself lucky that you have the luxury of indulging yourself by doing what you like on a Sunday rather than doing the chores that you were unable to get to any other day of the week, as is the case for many others.