European Elections

why not? There is ample choice on the voting slip. Not bothering to vote only endorses the status quo. The 50% who didn't bother to vote have no right to complain about the Government or its policies if they make no effort to engage by casting their votes.

Maybe I'm a bit dense and need this one spelled out for me... Why is "turning up" and spoiling my vote any better than not engaging at all? If everyone of my mindset "turned up" and spoilt our votes would it magically result in a fundamental change in our political system?
 
why not? There is ample choice on the voting slip. Not bothering to vote only endorses the status quo. The 50% who didn't bother to vote have no right to complain about the Government or its policies if they make no effort to engage by casting their votes.

1.The words "didn't bother" have relatively little relevance here. With the amount of emigration foisted on this country many many people were unable to vote. Do you think they should book flights back to Ireland just to vote?

2. There would be a fair amount of people whom for some reason or other could not vote either i.e. sick people, hospitalized, holidaymakers abroad, and the disgruntled.

3. I look on those who did not vote as people who were genuinely protesting against a choice of politicians who would scam them as against those who would rip them off. I fully understand why people would not vote and empathise with them.

4. Those who spoilt their votes are included in my 3rd point above. In the light of our "stroke" politicians it is obvious that the voters were ensuring that their votes would not be used. We've seen what politicians do with their travel claims etc, God only knows what they would do with "available" votes.

Then we have the unopinionated braindead; those who will vote down party lines no matter whom or what is put up for election. Do you think these deserve more respect than those who for one reason or another did not vote?

It is very easy to judge people while looking outward, but when one looks inward the playing field looks completely different.
 
The right to vote is one that was hard earned and a right that isn't afforded to a lot of people in other contries.

I believe that people should (if physically possible) make the trip to the polling station to cast their vote. Staying at home doens't declare anything specific.

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one.
 
That's called democracy Purple. Calling people stupid for exercising their democratic right is a harsh.

I'd be more critical of all the people who didn't bother to vote.
I didn't say that they were stupid for exercising their right, I said they were stupid for the manner in which they exercised it. I have nothing against people having strong left-wing views, it is the hollow and nonsensical nature of the policies (or lack thereof) of the Looney Left that I have a problem with.

I found myself in the voting booth looking at a pile of people about whom I knew little or was aware of their limitations.
Isn't that the case for most of us during local elections?
 
I didn't say that they were stupid for exercising their right, I said they were stupid for the manner in which they exercised it. I have nothing against people having strong left-wing views, it is the hollow and nonsensical nature of the policies (or lack thereof) of the Looney Left that I have a problem with.

Isn't that the case for most of us during local elections?

I agree but again, it wasn't the left wing loonies who got us into mess. The Irish Population has always voted centre parties. FF, FG, Labour, PD's, Greens were never left and right wing parties. They all had their ideologies but they all ended up falling back to the centre to try and appeal to the most voters. Considering the mess we are now in, can you really blame a large portion of the electorate from looking at alternatives. This isn't the electorates fault. It is the fault of centre parties for failing the electorate. And it's not just an Irish problem. We are seeing it across Europe. UKIP in Britain. The National Front in France. The Socilaists in Greece. People are now pushing towards to the extreme left and right because they feel that they are being ignored.
 
I found myself in the voting booth looking at a pile of people about whom I knew little or was aware of their limitations.

..

Normally, I might have amused myself by voting down the lists.

I normally vote all the way down the ballot, and Friday was no different. I gave #13 to the person I least wanted to win a seat, and so on up to #1. I do not claim this to be a rational way to use your vote; it gives me an opportunity to make a clear statement for how I feel about this individual. Giving them #13 is, IMHO, more declarative that giving them nothing.

For the local elections, I am happy to vote for the Greens or Independents, but would not do so in a General Election.

Congratulations to Lynn Boylan on her achievement. That political endorphin rush is the best she's going to feel for the next 5 years.
 
Maybe I'm a bit dense and need this one spelled out for me... Why is "turning up" and spoiling my vote any better than not engaging at all? If everyone of my mindset "turned up" and spoilt our votes would it magically result in a fundamental change in our political system?

No, but spoilt votes are still cast and counted (granted they are counted as spoilt but it means they are noticed). If you are consciously spoiling (as opposed to the unfortunates who accidentally spoil!) your vote you are consciously making a statement of disaffection with the system. If enough spoilt votes are cast they tend to make headlines and get additional attention. The classic example of where spoilt votes were taken note of (granted for the wrong reasons) was "Dustin the Turkey" in Tallaght. The spoil was large enough to garner attention in its own right - both nationally and internationally.

If you don't vote at all, is that a protest? Possibly. Out of the country? Possibly. Couldn't be arsed? Possibly. Improperly registered (i.e. registered to vote in more than one place)? Possibly - though the recent exercise in cleaning up the register has hopefully reduced that cohort somewhat. Basically who is to know. If you want to protest you need to vote. If you feel you can't express your protest fully in your choice of candidate then spoiling is a valid and explicit protest approach.
 
I agree but again, it wasn't the left wing loonies who got us into mess. The Irish Population has always voted centre parties. FF, FG, Labour, PD's, Greens were never left and right wing parties. They all had their ideologies but they all ended up falling back to the centre to try and appeal to the most voters. Considering the mess we are now in, can you really blame a large portion of the electorate from looking at alternatives. This isn't the electorates fault. It is the fault of centre parties for failing the electorate. And it's not just an Irish problem. We are seeing it across Europe. UKIP in Britain. The National Front in France. The Socilaists in Greece. People are now pushing towards to the extreme left and right because they feel that they are being ignored.
It wasn't the fact that the parties were centralist that screwed things up. It was the fact that they were incompetent and greedy and got into bed with incompetent and greedy developers, bankers, unions and builders (as well as retailers, publicans etc.). My problem is that the alternative offers no alternative. They are charlatans, snake-oil merchants.
 
1.The words "didn't bother" have relatively little relevance here. With the amount of emigration foisted on this country many many people were unable to vote. Do you think they should book flights back to Ireland just to vote?

I for one have certainly done so if I was abroad, not that I necessarily advocate that approach. I sincerely doubt though, that 50% of the electoral register has emigrated. That would amount to more than 1.5m people (excluding minors). Even if a third of that number have emigrated it still doesn't account for the majority of the non-voters -which would be on the high side frankly since net migration in this country has been in the region of 30k-40k pa and only in the last few years.

2. There would be a fair amount of people whom for some reason or other could not vote either i.e. sick people, hospitalized, holidaymakers abroad, and the disgruntled.
Disgruntled is not a reason you can't vote. Disgruntled is a reason you decide to stay at home and sit on your hands.
Holidaymakers equally make a conscious choice to disengage and prioritise their holidays over their civic duty. Again this is unlikely to consist of 1.5m voters and their children on any one day, it might be 10,000-30,000 so I would argue that the number of voters choosing holidays over voting is vanishingly small in the scheme of things.
That leaves sick and hospitalized. That would consist of people who have chronic conditions and those who have acute conditions. Of the two, logically only those with acute conditions are likely to be unable to vote due to illness or injury. Again it is unlikely this constitutes a significant number of people on any one day. I doubt that 1.5m people are in hospital at any one point. I doubt that 10,000 are in hospital with acute conditions at any one point. Those with chronic conditions generally can avail of the postal vote - so if they chose not to vote, they are also failing in their civic duty. There would be a cohort in here who no longer have the capacity to vote due to mental decline but again we are not looking at a significant amount of people to make a good dint in that 1.5m you need to make up to validate your argument.

3. I look on those who did not vote as people who were genuinely protesting against a choice of politicians who would scam them as against those who would rip them off. I fully understand why people would not vote and empathise with them.

I look on them as an undistinguishable and unknowable morass of different reasons - they have no voice because they choose not to speak. Unlike you I don't think most of them have left the country, are sick or are "protesting". I think if you want to protest you get out there and vote. I think the vast majority of them are indifferent and frankly lazy.

4. Those who spoilt their votes are included in my 3rd point above. In the light of our "stroke" politicians it is obvious that the voters were ensuring that their votes would not be used. We've seen what politicians do with their travel claims etc, God only knows what they would do with "available" votes.

Those who spoil their vote are genuinely and consciously protesting. Whether I agree or disagree with their protest is not an issue, I respect them and their choice. They have voted. (Even if they deface their vote in [broken link removed] :eek:)

Then we have the unopinionated braindead; those who will vote down party lines no matter whom or what is put up for election. Do you think these deserve more respect than those who for one reason or another did not vote?

Actually yes I do. Chances are they are opinionated and thankfully they are not "braindead". One may not agree with their choice but they believe in their party - if they choose to vote along party lines then they are as entitled to do that as the person who chooses to spoil their vote. What you are missing is that they agree with their party. That is a choice. That is an opinion. That is a valid reason to vote for the candidates they choose to vote for.

It is very easy to judge people while looking outward, but when one looks inward the playing field looks completely different.
No point in looking inward. We are not all wired up to some brain reading machine which decides the outcome of the election based on our collective inner meanderings - and for the life of me I cannot think why anyone would want such a nightmarish dystopia. We either get out there and engage or we don't.
 
It wasn't the fact that the parties were centralist that screwed things up. It was the fact that they were incompetent and greedy and got into bed with incompetent and greedy developers, bankers, unions and builders (as well as retailers, publicans etc.). My problem is that the alternative offers no alternative. They are charlatans, snake-oil merchants.

So your alternative is to keep voting for the same parties because they are the best of a bad lot?

I had lunch at the weekend with a couple I have known for years. Both professionals in good employment but not wealthy. The husband was always a member of FG and his wife was never interested in politics. Last year their daughter was diagnosed with terminal cancer. They have constant trips up and down to Dublin from Tipperary, they have large medical bills and two other children to worry about. They applied for a medical card for their terminally ill child but were refused. Now they can make sacrifices and survive but they do have to worry and stress about the household finances on top of a terminally ill child. And they are lucky in that they are relatively well off. They voted for independents (not sure if they were left wing or not) because they were disgusted with how they are treated by the State and this Government.

I couldn't argue with their logic or their anger. These were professional people who understand the economy and taxes and the need for austerity. However, as they said, even in times of austerity, there are choices to be made and how are they expected to vote for political parties who are giving mecical cards to wealthy and healthy under 6's while refusing a medical card to their terminally ill 9 year old daughter.

The most amazing thing about all this is that FG and Labour seem surprised by the results. Why? Middle Class Ireland doesn't march and they don't ring Joe Duffy on a Tuesday Afternoon but that doesn't mean they are just going to lie there like good puppies and continue voting for the same rubbish. Look at how the justice controversaries were handled. There was utter comtempt for the general public in the way we were told there is nothing here and it is time to move on.

This was just local and EU elections. The results wouldn't be the same in a General Election but that doesn't mean there hasn't been a shift in Irish politics and it is not because Irish voters are stupid or they really believe that Sinn Fein or a bunch of independents are a realistic alternative. It's because people are losing trust and faith in the political system as it stands. There has never been a bigger need for a new party who actually stands for something that people can get behind.
 
II look on them as an undistinguishable and unknowable morass of different reasons

A bit like those who vote independent. Especially at local elections. Media commentators often ascribe one reason for an increase in support for Independents. IMHO, the reasons are much more varied and may even be contradictory.
 
Good post Sunny, and no argument from me.
I agree completely that we need a new political party, or even two new parties. One left wing that actually represents the interests of the poor instead of middle income earners (like Shinn Fein but without the echo of Jackboots and the loony populist "tax the rich and everything will be fine" guff) and one that actually represents the interests of middle income earners in employment who want the efficient and competent delivery of state services and a political leadership who understand economics and are competent enough to deliver policies that are aligned to that understanding.

More than anything we need honesty and competence. We have had neither for a long time, if ever.
 
More than anything we need honesty and competence. We have had neither for a long time, if ever.

Pretty much sums it up. And then when I hear Enda Kenny say the next General Election will be a 'Humdinger', I despair. They really do believe is just a big game....
 
So it has finally come to this - FF and FG falling over themselves to get into bed with SF, god help us Grizzly is even playing hard to get.

But this is a profound misreading of the democratic will of the Irish people. Let me make the following speculation. Let's say the parties which might form a government are FF/FG/SF/LAB/Greens. That's them in order of 1st prefs. Now let us imagine the race for last pref. Just among these 5 we read down a ballot and a party scores a last pref if it appears last or not at all - ok that means there can be more than one last pref. My guess is that SF would win this last pref contest by a country mile - witness how a first pref win in the bi-election translated to a third place overall.

A great majority of people in this country are even more adamant that they do not want SF in power than they are passionate about who they do want.

Of course Enda in particular would be aware of that but felt he had to play this card for tactical reasons; after all he would not be outflanked; FF were not going to say "SF Never".

Some might argue that SF in minority power would be house trained as in the North. That is a bad miscalculation. Consider SF's taxation policy. Private Sector earners would be taxed at 58% on incomes over 100k whilst Public Sector earners would be taxed at 100%. Taxation and most important things are not within the Stormont remit so the Northern experience is not relevant.

We need a new party for sure - one which has the principle that it simply could not share power with a party with SF type policies. It was Bertie Ahern made this distinction - he was not against SF per se, he was against their policies. Unfortunately a single issue anti abortion party is not the answer.
 
And another thing. Did you notice that SF got nearly 20% 1st prefs in the Euros and only 15% in the locals. And it was broadly the same 51% of the electorate which voted. This says that a very significant number of those who voted them for the pointless EP didn't trust them with any real power albeit local.

Similarly LMF tops an EP poll in MNW but I presume that even the people of MNW would not be this silly if they thought he would get some real power over their lives.
 
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