OT posts re teacher T&C's removed from AIB Redundancy Thread

[Sunny]

Ok, slightly off topic but here is a question about teaching hours that I don't understand. Not just with Irish teachers but with teachers across Europe. Why don't they work standardised days and get standard holidays like everyone else? Why don't they work 9-5 Monday to Friday even if teaching finishes at 3. That way they do administrative work afterwards. Same with holidays. Why do they they the same holidays as students? Should they not be made to go into the school during holidays to do all the stuff that teachers say has to be done outside class? During the summer, can they not offer a few hours teaching a day to children with learning difficulties or those who need extra help or might be interesting in learning more and then do administrative work as well.

Basically, why don't teachers in every Country work a standard week with standard annual leave entitlements? What am I missing?

 

[Purple]

Two things stand out in the report ONQ.
Firstly this paragraph;
"The data in this report must be used with caution. First and foremost, these are based on respondents’ own estimations, based on available information, not necessarily on internationally comparable primary statistical data from provable sources. Secondly, the average and approximate values given in this report does not allow evaluating or analyzing in any detail the situation in regard to salaries and working conditions in any particular country."

Secondly I note that Ireland doesn't feature in the wage graphs.


I presume that you know the difference between hours worked per week and total hours worked per year?
Assuming that you do then citing that primary school teachers work a long week relative to teachers in other countries without noting that they work fewer weeks than most is, to say the least, not giving the full story.

I also presume you know that we are slipping down the world rankings for literacy and numeracy and that the “world class education system” myth has been exposed for what it is by both empirical data and the opinions of high-tech business leaders.

From this source;
"On reading levels, Ireland has slipped from fifth place in 2000 to 17th place, the sharpest decline among 39 countries surveyed.

The organisation’s Programme for International Student Assessment study says almost one-quarter of Irish 15-year-olds are below the level of literacy needed to participate effectively in society."


BTW, I am not part of any grand conspiracy to undermine the state and I have no particular axe to grind with teachers. My opinions are formed mainly from listening to the teachers lobby, my sister in law ( a primary school vice principal), my father in law (a retired secondary school Vice principal) and my sister who is studying to be a primary school teacher.
I also see the abysmal standard of teaching and appalling lack of care for the emotional and educational welfare at the school my two sons attended up to this year and the defensiveness of many teachers and all of their representative groups when anyone suggests that perhaps not every teacher in Ireland is perfect. I find is bizarre that more teachers are not like my sister in law who is disgusted by how her union behaves, the pay increases that have taken resources away from children, the increase in non-core curriculum requirements at the same time as the school year being reduced and the utter lack of any real-life sanction for teachers who simply can’t or won’t do their job properly.

 

[Purple]

Ok, slightly off topic but here is a question about teaching hours that I don't understand. Not just with Irish teachers but with teachers across Europe. Why don't they work standardised days and get standard holidays like everyone else? Why don't they work 9-5 Monday to Friday even if teaching finishes at 3. That way they do administrative work afterwards. Same with holidays. Why do they they the same holidays as students? Should they not be made to go into the school during holidays to do all the stuff that teachers say has to be done outside class? During the summer, can they not offer a few hours teaching a day to children with learning difficulties or those who need extra help or might be interesting in learning more and then do administrative work as well.

Basically, why don't teachers in every Country work a standard week with standard annual leave entitlements? What am I missing?

I don’t see why they should have to work when the children are off. What would it achieve?

I don’t think the teaching day should be any longer either as children can only learn so much and standing in front of a class is more difficult and mentally draining than sitting in an office.
I do think the school year should be longer so that children have more time to cover the curriculum but I don’t think child-minding problems for parents over the summer are relevant here.

As for ONQ's lack of understanding of the link between pay and class sizes here’s a simple example;

You have 50’000 children and you want 25 in each class.
Therefore you need 2000 teachers.
If you have €80’000’000 to pay those teachers with then their average pay will be €40’000.
If the teachers want €50’000 average pay then you can only employ 1’600 of them so the average class size will increase to 31.25.

It’s hardly rocket science.

 

[Sunny]

I don’t see why they should have to work when the children are off. What would it achieve?

I don’t think the teaching day should be any longer either as children can only learn so much and standing in front of a class is more difficult and mentally draining than sitting in an office.
I do think the school year should be longer so that children have more time to cover the curriculum but I don’t think child-minding problems for parents over the summer are relevant here.
.

It has got nothing to do with child minding. And teaching is no more mentally draining than being a nurse or guard or numerous other jobs.

You yourself say standards are falling. We can't afford to cut class sizes, we don't want to pay for special needs assistants, teachers say they can't attention to struggling students and better students are often fustrated. I am simply asking why teachers get the same time off as students when they could be used to help struggling students who want to learn or by offering extra grinds (instead of making money privately). I am not calling for teachers slavery. They are entitled to the same holidays as everyone else. I just don't understand why as a resource, they are used to maximum effect. It's the same across Europe.

Look at the money that grind schools make. There are a lot of students that want to learn or catch up. I would say you offer them a hour or two tutorial some days during Easter break and they would be delighted.

 

[T McGibney]

The last thing that children with learning difficulties want or need is additional classes in the summer when the sun is shining and their friends are playing and enjoying their childhood. God knows, these children are stigmatised enough as it is.

 

[Sunny]

The last thing that children with learning difficulties want or need is additional classes in the summer when the sun is shining and their friends are playing and enjoying their childhood. God knows, these children are stigmatised enough as it is.

My God, I am not talking about locking them in a room for 8 hours a day for the summer. Also when does the sun ever shine?

 

[T McGibney]

My God, I am not talking about locking them in a room for 8 hours a day for the summer.

I never said you were. That said, how is a child going to react when told they have to attend school for 'a few hours a day' during the holidays, because they didn't perform up to par with their classmates during school term?

 

[Sunny]

I never said you were. That said, how is a child going to react when told they have to attend school for 'a few hours a day' during the holidays, because they didn't perform up to par with their classmates during school term?

I am not saying make it compulsory. I am simply saying there might be kids out there that want to do something extra for any number of reasons. Not just talking about kids with learning difficulties. Look at the amount of kids who pay for grinds at Easter holidays or after normal school day? If a child is borderline honours/pass maths, maybe one or two hours a day for a couple of weeks during the summer could make all the difference.

 

[T McGibney]

Not just talking about kids with learning difficulties.

But you're still advocating extra classes for them, so my points above stand.

Look at the amount of kids who pay for grinds at Easter holidays or after normal school day? If a child is borderline honours/pass maths, maybe one or two hours a day for a couple of weeks during the summer could make all the difference.

I don't agree that the State should provide extra-curricular grinds to selected students free of charge and at public expense, if only for reasons of equality.

 

[Sunny]

But you're still advocating extra classes for them, so my points above stand.



I don't agree that the State should provide extra-curricular grinds to selected students free of charge and at public expense, if only for reasons of equality.

I would rather a person with learning difficulties got extra help if they wanted it if it meant missing a hour a day play time for a couple of weeks during the summer. I feel cruel.

I don't get your second point. Where I am saying selected students? I said any student that wants to to it. I never said free of charge or at increased public expense. That's the whole point of saying why aren't teachers available to do this work. I am not talking about hiring more and paying them extra. I just don't understand why we let a valuable resource like teachers disappear for a few months every summer. My girlfriends sister is heading off for two months next week and is been paid for every day she is away and fair play to her. I just don't get the profession. I haven't heard a logical reason for it yet.

 

[T McGibney]

I would rather a person with learning difficulties got extra help if they wanted it if it meant missing a hour a day play time for a couple of weeks during the summer. I feel cruel.

But you miss the rather obvious point that most children, by their nature, won't want extra class time.

By contrast, their parents or guardians might, for various reasons, not all of them honourable or consistent with the welfare, self-esteem or happiness of the children. And I guess that in a lot of cases it will be adults who make the decision for the children.

Your anecdote about your girlfriend's sister is telling. If she's getting holidays next week, she's obviously a primary school teacher. Do you really expect many primary school children to decide that they want extra class time in Summer?

I don't get your second point. Where I am saying selected students? I said any student that wants to to it. I never said free of charge or at increased public expense.

Of course, any official programme of extra-curricular grinds is not going to apply to all children. Therefore by its nature it is only going to apply to a select subset of children. Again I don't think that you have thought through the equality implications of this, especially as you now say that it wouldn't necessarily be provided free of charge to the student. Will it become acceptable for a teacher to say 'okay we won't bother revising that topic until August' when only those in the class who can afford to be there are present in August? And have you thought through the additional school transport, supervision, maintenance, caretaking, security and other cost implications of extending the active school term by a further 4-6 weeks?

. I just don't understand why we let a valuable resource like teachers disappear for a few months every summer.

I don't understand either why the culture of presenteeism should have to extend to education, when it is doing so much harm elsewhere.

 

[Purple]

I don't understand either why the culture of presenteeism should have to extend to education, when it is doing so much harm elsewhere.

Eh?

What does that mean?

 

[T McGibney]

Eh?

What does that mean?

The definition of Presenteeism is...

, a relatively unknown concept, is the complement of Absenteeism. It is defined as the measure of lost productivity cost due to employees actually showing up for work, but not being fully engaged and productive mainly because of personal health and life issue distractions.

I think it is highly relevant to the spectre of children (especially those deemed by others to 'have learning difficulties' or other social development issues) being cooped up in additional classes, albeit on a purely 'voluntary' basis, during school holidays.

 

[Purple]

The definition of Presenteeism is...

Yes, I know what it is, I’m confused as to how it applies to this issue.

 

[T McGibney]

Have I not explained? Or did our posts cross?

 

[Purple]

Have I not explained? Or did our posts cross?

Our posts crossed.

 

[liaconn]

Ok, slightly off topic but here is a question about teaching hours that I don't understand. Not just with Irish teachers but with teachers across Europe. Why don't they work standardised days and get standard holidays like everyone else? Why don't they work 9-5 Monday to Friday even if teaching finishes at 3. That way they do administrative work afterwards. Same with holidays. Why do they they the same holidays as students? Should they not be made to go into the school during holidays to do all the stuff that teachers say has to be done outside class? During the summer, can they not offer a few hours teaching a day to children with learning difficulties or those who need extra help or might be interesting in learning more and then do administrative work as well.

Basically, why don't teachers in every Country work a standard week with standard annual leave entitlements? What am I missing?

What exactly would they spend the summer doing in the school? There is no homework to correct or classes to be prepared which is what teachers do outside school. I think, also, you will find that schoold principals are actually in school for a proportion of the holidays. How do you think new teachers are recruited, timetables are organised, necessary repairs are undertaken etc? It doesn't happen by magic.
I can't imagine too many kids would express an interest in 'learning more' during the holidays. How would you select which teachers would undertake this task for the minority who might want Summer grinds etc, while their colleagues enjoyed their holiday? It just wouldn't work.
Also, most schools have secretaries to do admin. work. Are you suggesting they be laid off? What admin. work would the teachers do during the holidays?

 

[csirl]

What exactly would they spend the summer doing in the school? There is no homework to correct or classes to be prepared which is what teachers do outside school. I think, also, you will find that schoold principals are actually in school for a proportion of the holidays. How do you think new teachers are recruited, timetables are organised, necessary repairs are undertaken etc? It doesn't happen by magic.
I can't imagine too many kids would express an interest in 'learning more' during the holidays. How would you select which teachers would undertake this task for the minority who might want Summer grinds etc, while their colleagues enjoyed their holiday? It just wouldn't work.
Also, most schools have secretaries to do admin. work. Are you suggesting they be laid off? What admin. work would the teachers do during the holidays?

You could have mandatory summer school for weak students - dont they do this in the USA and elsewhere? Students who's grades are low are required to attend lessons in order to bring them up to standard. I would assume that all teachers would undertake the task - school would just run with its existing timetable for several more weeks, only difference is that there will be 5-6 kids in each class (allowing them to get more individual attention) instead of 20-30 kids. If the kids dont attend, then they repeat the year.

 

[liaconn]

You could have mandatory summer school for weak students - dont they do this in the USA and elsewhere? Students who's grades are low are required to attend lessons in order to bring them up to standard. I would assume that all teachers would undertake the task - school would just run with its existing timetable for several more weeks, only difference is that there will be 5-6 kids in each class (allowing them to get more individual attention) instead of 20-30 kids.

So weak students get shorter holidays? That sounds incredibly unfair. Almost like a punishment for not being very bright. Not to mention labelling them in front of everyone.

 

[csirl]

So weak students get shorter holidays? That sounds incredibly unfair. Almost like a punishment for not being very bright. Not to mention labelling them in front of everyone.

Thats one way of looking at it. Alternatively, you could say that kids who work hard during the year are rewarded with longer holidays and kids who need extra tuition to bring them up to the same standard as the others get the help thus allowing them to start the new school year on a par with everyone else.