Same sex couples and their human rights

[MrMan]

We've established that one can lead to a child and the other can't. The question that this debate is around is whether the inability to naturally conceive means you are prohibited from adopting a child.

I say no it shouldn't. That doesn't extend to everyone being able to own a child as if they were a commodity, it just means that your ability to conceive isn't the judge. Your ability to raise, support and love a child is the only judgement.

So, is ability to naturally conceive an absolute barrier to being a parent (with all the options available today to facilitate this)? If you can't conceive naturally, you are not permitted to be a parent?

With Gay adoption my stance is I'm just not sure either way and until I'm convinced something is right then I don't believe in change for the sake of change.

 

[pinkyBear]

What I cant understand about this debate is who's business is it anyway if a gay couple decide to adopt a child? As it currently stands a gay person can adopt a child, but their partner cannot be granted guardianship.

The most important thing in this debate is the wefare of the child, and it is worrying that a child that could be looked after by two parents, if the childs legal guardian died the child could be removed from the partner..

P..

 

[Complainer]

I don't believe in change for the sake of change.

I don't believe anyone is proposing change for the sake of change. How about change for the sake not being discriminated against based on your sexual preference.

Using sexual preference to assess the suitability of parents is like using philately to choose the members of the Irish rugby team.

 

[MrMan]

I don't believe anyone is proposing change for the sake of change. How about change for the sake not being discriminated against based on your sexual preference.

Using sexual preference to assess the suitability of parents is like using philately to choose the members of the Irish rugby team.

Nearly every situation can be construed to have an air of discrimination about it. I don't hear enough of a clamour for change to even consider it. What if 4 guys have lived together all their lives decide they want a baby in the house, do we say well if we don't say yes we are discriminating?

 

[Sunny]

What if 4 guys have lived together all their lives decide they want a baby in the house, do we say well if we don't say yes we are discriminating?

Come on, you don't have to resort to arguments like that. The answer as you well know is that we don't have to say yes for the same reason we wouldn't give a baby to two men and two women or three women and one man.

The argument is about gay couples having the same rights as hetrosexual couples.

 

[Complainer]

What if 4 guys have lived together all their lives decide they want a baby in the house, do we say well if we don't say yes we are discriminating?

We say let them be evaluated based on their ability to parent, regardless of their gender or sexual preferences.

Equality doesn't mean that we'll be handing out babies willy nilly. It does mean that everyone gets a fair chance, based on their ability to parent.

 

[MrMan]

We say let them be evaluated based on their ability to parent, regardless of their gender or sexual preferences.

Equality doesn't mean that we'll be handing out babies willy nilly. It does mean that everyone gets a fair chance, based on their ability to parent.

So if they pass a test you are willing to let them adopt a child on the basis of equality?

 

[MrMan]

Come on, you don't have to resort to arguments like that. The answer as you well know is that we don't have to say yes for the same reason we wouldn't give a baby to two men and two women or three women and one man.

The argument is about gay couples having the same rights as hetrosexual couples.

Just highlighting where the concept can go if we are opening up new avenues for people to adopt children that were not already in place. If the 4 guys have a loving understanding going on surely 4 parents are better than two crappy ones etc etc.

 

[csirl]

Also, if one half of a lesbian couple uses treatments such as sperm donor and gets pregnant, her partner has no recognised rights.

Rightly so. If one half of a lesbian couple has a child with a third party, then the child's father has the "recognised rights". No different to any other situation whereby a woman in a relationship has a child with someone else. This is one of the points I was making earlier. People are proposing that e.g. the lesbian couple's partner get automatic rights at the expense of the childs father. A child's parents should always have the automatic rights.

 

[Sunny]

Just highlighting where the concept can go if we are opening up new avenues for people to adopt children that were not already in place. If the 4 guys have a loving understanding going on surely 4 parents are better than two crappy ones etc etc.

Are you seriously resorting to this argument? Legally it couldn't happen because only couples or single applicants can adopt. Giving gay couples the same rights as hetrosexual couples won't change that

 

[Sunny]

Rightly so. If one half of a lesbian couple has a child with a third party, then the child's father has the "recognised rights". No different to any other situation whereby a woman in a relationship has a child with someone else. This is one of the points I was making earlier. People are proposing that e.g. the lesbian couple's partner get automatic rights at the expense of the childs father. A child's parents should always have the automatic rights.

Nobody is saying the father hasn't got rights or loses his rights. The fact remains that the gay partner get's no rights even if the father is not on the scene. If an emergency happened and the mother wasn't around, her partner could not be able to give her consent for emergency medical treatment as she is not a family member. This doesn't happen if hetrosexual couples marry as the step father is considered family even if the original father still has rights.

 

[Complainer]

So if they pass a test you are willing to let them adopt a child on the basis of equality?

If the pass the same test as everyone else, then yes, I am willing to let them adopt a child. Not the basis of 'equality', but on the basis of good parenting.

Having said that, it is a fairly silly example, and I can't foresee any arrangement of 4 lads in a house that would lead to good parenting - but that's a matter for whatever test is applied.

 

[Shawady]

Legally it couldn't happen because only couples or single applicants can adopt.

Someone on another thread was looking to get married abroad quickly as he wanted to adopt. This would imply that hetrosexual couples that are not married cannot adopt? Also, on the Pat Kenny show during the week one of the contributors said that although it is technicallty possible for a single person to adopt in Ireland, in practice it is virtually impossible to do it (although he conceeded a small number of people had).

In reality, it is probably only married couples that are succesful in adopting in Ireland.

 

[csirl]

Nobody is saying the father hasn't got rights or loses his rights. The fact remains that the gay partner get's no rights even if the father is not on the scene. If an emergency happened and the mother wasn't around, her partner could not be able to give her consent for emergency medical treatment as she is not a family member. This doesn't happen if hetrosexual couples marry as the step father is considered family even if the original father still has rights.

I'm sure step fathers have no rights - legally regarded as strangers and cant sign consent forms etc. in hospital.

 

[Sunny]

Someone on another thread was looking to get married abroad quickly as he wanted to adopt. This would imply that hetrosexual couples that are not married cannot adopt? Also, on the Pat Kenny show during the week one of the contributors said that although it is technicallty possible for a single person to adopt in Ireland, in practice it is virtually impossible to do it (although he conceeded a small number of people had).

In reality, it is probably only married couples that are succesful in adopting in Ireland.

Sorry, yeah only married couples can adopt.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...ships/adoption-and-fostering/adopting_a_child

But of course since marriage is not open to gay couples, they can't adopt as a couple.

 

[Sunny]

I'm sure step fathers have no rights - legally regarded as strangers and cant sign consent forms etc. in hospital.

Yeah, you are right. I should have said that the avenue of adoption is open to the step father to gain the rights but the same right is not available to the gay partner.

 

[Shawady]

Sorry, yeah only married couples can adopt.

It seems strange that in some circumstances a single person may adopt but a co-habiting couple can't.

"A sole applicant who is not in one of the categories listed above may only adopt where the Adoption Board is satisfied that, in the particular circumstances of the case, it is desirable. It is not possible for two unmarried persons to adopt jointly."

I wonder if the principle of gay couples adopting should be dealt with it in a new adoption bill rather than the current civil partnership bill? i.e. Allow gay couples to form a civil partnership first and then look to have the adoption critera changed in a separate bill to allow for gay couples and non-married heterosexual couples.

 

[csirl]

It seems that the big issue is adoption rights?

 

[foxylady]

I listened to the debate on The Last Word today about the right of same sex couples to have children.

Now I have always had fairly strong views on this over the years, yet I still do not consider myself a homophobe which is always thrown at you if you hold the view I do.

Needless to say, I only think that couples who are capable of having children should have them. I have no qualms about same sex marriages, but I always thought it could complicate the life of the child(ren) later in life. And I do appreciate that many children may well be happier in a same-sex marriage as in the traditional marriage of a man and a woman.

But the angle I always stood by was, "if two same sex people want to have a long term relationship why exactly do they have the human right to have children?"

They cannot do it themselves, so why should we give it to them? Surely if you bow to this then there are other cases where people may claim something as 'their human right'?

I know this is a whole can of worms, but I believe what I believe. Nature works in a certain way for a reason.

On that reasoning so , you dont agree with heterosexual couples adopting when they cant conceive themselves.

 

[michaelm]

Firstly, there is no human right to have a child. Whenever possible a child should not be denied the right to both a mother and father and the State should not implement policies, for the sake of modernity, which create artificial constructs where a child will be fatherless or motherless.

As per Vanilla's link highlights all this has happened before and all this will happen again (BSG rather than LBG reference ).

Christmas cracker Joke: Why was the Egyptian boy confused?
A: His Daddy was a Mummy.