Workplace AVC scheme or PRSA AVC?

qwerty-2023

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I'm in the Single Public Sector Pension Scheme and my workplace offers an AVC scheme.

The main features of the AVC scheme are:
  • TER 0.62%
  • 6 different funds to choose from, all indexed/passive strategy, with varying risk profiles
  • I'd invest in their global indexed equity fund for now and reallocate to lower-risk as I age
  • The investment managers are Irish Life but the funds are not the usual IL funds, they're designed(?) by the trustee company / IL just manages them
  • Main downside is the fund factsheet doesn't specific what index it tracks - financial advisor says "a variety of benchmarks, taking ESG into account"
In contrast, I can open a PRSA AVC and deal with tax refunds myself, for TER 0.9% with Standard Life and invest in Vanguard index funds. It's a bit more expensive and I'd have to claim tax relief myself, but at least I'd know exactly what I'm investing in whereas the AVC scheme my workplace offers seems a bit like "don't ask questions, we know what we're doing" which is fine for most people but I'd like to know what the fund I'm buying into is actually trying to do!

What would you do? Is the lower cost and hassle "worth" picking the AVC scheme even if I don't understand it as well as a PRSA?
 
  • I'd invest in their global indexed equity fund for now and reallocate to lower-risk as I age
You might want to search Askaboutmoney for existing threads on such "lifestyling" and why many people advise against it.
  • The investment managers are Irish Life but the funds are not the usual IL funds, they're designed(?) by the trustee company / IL just manages them
If they are indexed/passive funds then what management is involved? Just the actual tracking of the relevant indices?
  • Main downside is the fund factsheet doesn't specific what index it tracks - financial advisor says "a variety of benchmarks, taking ESG into account"
That seems a bit odd - can't you get any more detailed info?
What would you do? Is the lower cost and hassle "worth" picking the AVC scheme even if I don't understand it as well as a PRSA?
I would be inclined to go for the lower cost option maybe subject to obtaining more info about the funds/indices tracked.
0.28% difference in the AMC/TER may seem like nothing but it could have a significant impact on your returns over time.

Others may be able to clarify other possible pros and cons such as when you can retire/mature such an AVC versus a PRSA etc.
 
You might want to search Askaboutmoney for existing threads on such "lifestyling" and why many people advise against it.

If they are indexed/passive funds then what management is involved? Just the actual tracking of the relevant indices?

That seems a bit odd - can't you get any more detailed info?

I would be inclined to go for the lower cost option maybe subject to obtaining more info about the funds/indices tracked.
0.28% difference in the AMC/TER may seem like nothing but it could have a significant impact on your returns over time.

Others may be able to clarify other possible pros and cons such as when you can retire/mature such an AVC versus a PRSA etc.
The difference in TER might be worth paying if the ILAC tracking error was greater than vanguard by that much (or of the index it tracks is a worse performer). I vaguely recall someone on here saying ILAC index tracking funds weren't great at tracking the index.
 
Main downside is the fund factsheet doesn't specific what index it tracks - financial advisor says "a variety of benchmarks, taking ESG into account"
They should be able to tell you what it's currently invested in. If you have the fund factsheet, you should see what the breakdown of investment is, and the investment strategy. Unless it specifies a specific index, then it's not trying to track one.
What's the name of the fund on the top of the factsheet?
 
financial advisor says "a variety of benchmarks, taking ESG into account"

This is a poor reply. If they're claiming to be index-tracking then they should tell you what index or indices they're tracking. That way you can see (a) if the index composition and consequent composition of the tracking fund suits you and (b) you can see how efficient Irish Life are at tracking the index.

Years ago I looked at other Irish Life index-tracking funds and after some digging I discovered that they were tracking indices that they themselves had created.
 
I’d imagine these are not funds designed for these scheme but are a re-brand of existing Irish LIfe funds . The Irish life global equity funds tracks the MSCI world index per the fund factsheet on their website . I don’t know of tracking error for Irish Life index fund but it won’t be as much as difference in TER so I would stay with Irish life for AVC
 
The Irish life global equity funds tracks the MSCI world index per the fund factsheet on their website .

That's not relevant to this original poster's query. When asked about the funds offered, the financial advisor told the original poster that it tracks "a variety of benchmarks, taking ESG into account". So it's obviously a different fund to the one you're talking about.

I don’t know of tracking error for Irish Life index fund but it won’t be as much as difference in TER so I would stay with Irish life for AVC

So the original poster and financial advisor don't know what indices the suggested Irish Life fund(s) are tracking. Therefore we don't know what the tracking error might be. What basis do you have for saying that the tracking error won't be as much as the difference in TER?

Seems odd to be suggesting staying with Irish Life for the AVC when none of us - not even the financial advisor - know the facts about the suggested funds.
 
Apologies I initially misread in relation to global equity fund

Irish like is used as fund manager by the majority of large company pensions . If the tracking error was more than difference in TER’s quoted they wouldn’t be used.

I was trying to give an advise to initial post based on what is known.
 
Apologies I initially misread in relation to global equity fund

Irish like is used as fund manager by the majority of large company pensions . If the tracking error was more than difference in TER’s quoted they wouldn’t be used.

I was trying to give an advise to initial post based on what is known.
I have done the smallest bit of googling and have found a fund offered as a public service AVC through ILAC that seems to match OP's description: https://www.irishlifecorporatebusiness.ie/fund?SEG

It's 1%p.a. behind its benchmark.

Anecdotally, I have been told that a lot of MNCs establish pension schemes with ILAC because they have 'Irish' in there name, and lots of other companies just go with the largest player in the market.

I see from the factsheet that one of the top 10 holdings is ILIM. Are the fund managers investing in themselves?
 
I have done the smallest bit of googling and have found a fund offered as a public service AVC through ILAC that seems to match OP's description: https://www.irishlifecorporatebusiness.ie/fund?SEG

It's 1%p.a. behind its benchmark.

Anecdotally, I have been told that a lot of MNCs establish pension schemes with ILAC because they have 'Irish' in there name, and lots of other companies just go with the largest player in the market.

I see from the factsheet that one of the top 10 holdings is ILIM. Are the fund managers investing in themselves?
I think they definitely get business due to biggest , best well known.
 
Thank you everyone for your helpful and on-point advice so far!

Some clarifications below.

First, I found this fund on the retail Irish Life website and compared it to the fact sheet provided by my work (which I'm not sure I'm allowed to share so I just pasted relevant info below). The geographical/sector split, top 10 holdings, and benchmark performance are exactly the same. So I think it's safe to say my AVC tracks the same thing, i.e. the MSCI World Index, according to the retail fund's fact sheet.

What's strange is:
  1. Performance differs between the AVC and retail fund, despite tracking the same thing with presumably the same methods
  2. The benchmark differs a lot from the actual MSCI World Index, even though IL says that's what they're tracking! (Or did I get it wrong?)
Performance201720182019202020212022
My AVC scheme8.71%-4.43%29.67%6.37%29.76%-12.58%
Retail Irish Life fund7.87%-5.10%28.68%5.55%28.81%-13.24%
Benchmark (same in both fact sheets)8.99%-4.16%30.09%6.72%30.04%-12.78%
"Real" MSCI World23.07%-8.20%28.40%16.50%22.35%-17.73%

I have no idea why the two funds differ - both are before charges and both try to track the same thing! But the AVC seems to track it better.

Other differences are: the AVC fund (series?) was launched five years earlier (likely doesn't matter as both factsheets are from 31/08/23) and the AVC fund is bigger, which I guess makes sense as it likely contains many companies' AVC schemes while the retail fund contains individuals.

Some more info based on user questions:

If they are indexed/passive funds then what management is involved? Just the actual tracking of the relevant indices?
Yes, as far as I understood from my chat with the financial advisor.

I’d imagine these are not funds designed for these scheme but are a re-brand of existing Irish LIfe funds .
I'd say you're right based on my findings above. But the difference in performance is strange. The financial advisor had said the funds available in the AVC are not the usual IL funds available to the retail investor, but rather the trustees decide on an investment strategy and Irish Life are the company that the trustees chose to manage the investments. So maybe even though it's the same index, IL do a better job at tracking it because it's a different fund managed by a different team or...something? I don't know.

The difference in TER might be worth paying if the ILAC tracking error was greater than vanguard by that much (or of the index it tracks is a worse performer). I vaguely recall someone on here saying ILAC index tracking funds weren't great at tracking the index.
Yes that's also one of my considerations, though according to the AVC fund fact sheet, since launch (2005) the fund returned 8.73% per annum before fees vs. 8.91% for the benchmark which doesn't sound too bad. But again, I'm not sure what this benchmark is since it doesn't seem to track the MSCI World Index (or not closely at all) despite the "twin" retail version of my AVC fund saying that it's the index they track!

They should be able to tell you what it's currently invested in. If you have the fund factsheet, you should see what the breakdown of investment is, and the investment strategy. Unless it specifies a specific index, then it's not trying to track one.
The fund factsheet lists the investment style as "indexed" and the financial advisor told me all the funds in the AVC are passive/index funds. The fund objective is listed as "to perform in line with the benchmark index..." etc. so I'm confident it's passive. The fund description says: "This fund invests in global shares. The fund is fully invested in global companies domiciled in developed market countries. The Fund follows a passive strategy and the Fund Manager replicates the securities held in the underlying benchmark." Based on my findings above, it seems the index they track is the same as the indexed equities IL retail fund, though the AVC tracks it better for some reason, and I'm still not sure what this index is as despite saying they track MSCI, benchmark figures aren't close to MSCI at all. Very confusing altogether!

You might want to search Askaboutmoney for existing threads on such "lifestyling" and why many people advise against it.
Thank you, I'll take that into consideration. I don't have a solid plan yet re: lifestyling etc, but I figure since I have 40 years until state pension age, for now I should just stick it into an indexed global equity fund and reassess in a few decades. But very open to advice and input here as well. The next most "risky" fund available is 60/40 equities/bonds which seems a bit bonds-heavy given my time horizon but I could be wrong.
 
That seems a bit odd - can't you get any more detailed info?
PS: I am now guessing that the "variety of indices and ESG priorities" comment applied to the other fund options in the AVC (multi-asset funds with equities, bonds, etc. that also include ESG metrics) rather than to the fund option I was interested in - the global equities index fund, which doesn't include an asset type breakdown obviously, but also doesn't include ESG information, and seems to follow a single index as above.
 
What's strange is:
  1. Performance differs between the AVC and retail fund, despite tracking the same thing with presumably the same methods
Retail assumes a .75% AMC
"Fund returns are quoted before taxes and after a standard annual management charge of 0.75%."

The benchmark differs a lot from the actual MSCI World Index, even though IL says that's what they're tracking! (Or did I get it wrong?)
FX. You're comparing EUR return with a USD return.
 
Thanks a million @RedOnion for the explanation, I updated the table below and both the funds and the benchmarks are much closer now!

Performance201720182019202020212022
My AVC scheme8.71%-4.43%29.67%6.37%29.76%-12.58%
Retail Irish Life fund (-.75%AMC for comparability)8.62%-4.35%29.43%6.30%29.56%-12.49%
Benchmark (same in both fact sheets)8.99%-4.16%30.09%6.72%30.04%-12.78%
"Real" MSCI World (now EUR version)7.51%-4.11%30.02%6.33%31.07%-12.78%
 
Thanks @RedOnion, I have this fact sheet for the Vanguard fund (net of 0.9% AMC) but they report performance a bit differently which makes direct comparison difficult (annual returns are e.g. Aug 2022 to Aug 2023 rather than for calendar year 2022) and the fund was launched in 2018, so no earlier data. But the 5-year average return is close enough (9.7% for Vanguard net of AMC, vs. 9.77% for Irish Life AVC fund, and 9.9% Irish Life benchmark - can't compare with MSCI 5yr return as it's already updated to end Sept rather than end Aug).

(EDITED FOR CLARITY)

I guess I can re-summarise my original question more accurately now as:

Should I sign up for my workplace AVC scheme given its low AMC (0.62%) and automatic tax relief?

Or should I use a PRSA as an AVC instead, pay 0.9% AMC, and not have to worry about tracking error?


I've documented the tracking errors in the comment below (7:58PM).
 
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I have this fact sheet for the Vanguard fund (net of 0.9% AMC) but they report performance a bit differently which makes direct comparison difficult (annual returns are e.g. Aug 2022 to Aug 2023 rather than for calendar year 2022) and the fund was launched in 2018, so no earlier data
No, that's inside a life company wrapper so you can't easily compare to benchmark.

You need the Vanguard institutional fund. I think it might be this one but I'm open to correction.
 
Oh, thank you @RedOnion ! Updated table in case anyone else is interested, Vanguard definitely does better at tracking MSCI:

Performance201720182019202020212022
AVC scheme (Irish Life indexed global equities)8.71%-4.43%29.67%6.37%29.76%-12.58%
AVC benchmark (synthesised by Irish Life)8.99%-4.16%30.09%6.72%30.04%-12.78%
MSCI World7.51%-4.11%30.02%6.33%31.07%-12.78%
Vanguard fund7.47%-4.16%30.03%6.32%31.07%-12.79%

(EDIT: cleaned up table)
 
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Thanks again everyone for your help! I had a busy couple weeks and only got back to thinking about AVCs today.

In the end, based on the above Irish Life has lower TER than Standard Life by 0.28ppt, but a worse tracking error by 0.55ppt.

Because of this, I've decided to go with the Standard Life PRSA-AVC rather than with my workplace's Irish Life AVC scheme.

Any comments, advice, or corrections welcome!!

Caveats in case anyone else is in the same situation:
  • I compared the average tracking errors over the past 6 years, compared to the MSCI index (not Irish Life's benchmark)
  • I ignored the fact that some years ILAC's larger error meant unintentionally "outperforming" the index
  • My decision means more hassle/paperwork (no automatic salary deductions, will have to claim tax relief myself...)
  • My decision has more scope for human error (e.g. if I misunderstand tax relief or overfunding rules) vs. a workplace AVC with a trustee.
 
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