Why does it cost so much to build apartments in Dublin?

letitroll said:

Agree......but this piece above can follow in a few years?......you want the limited construction workforce engaged in highly productive (in terms unit output) activities in the first instance......doing kitchen extensions is not the highest and best use of scarce capacity right now etc.

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Agreed.

letitroll said:

Indeed if king for a day - i might only do the VAT holiday for super high dense - high volume apartment stuff for the first few years.....really kickstart that sector and get (hopefully) an avalanche of supply in a couple of years that gets noticed.....

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The problem with this is that the easiest and quickest wins in terms of generating additional housing units will be in rural new-builds and restoring derelict units.

T McGibney said:

The problem with this is that the easiest and quickest wins in terms of generating additional housing units will be in rural new-builds and restoring derelict units.

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It would be a real indictment of the construction sector is refurbishing derelict homes was more cost and, in particular, labour efficient than high volume new builds.

Purple said:

It would be a real indictment of the construction sector is refurbishing derelict homes was more cost and, in particular, labour efficient than high volume new builds.

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Hardly if refurbishment is confined to replacement of doors, windows, insulation, decoration and contents rather than the groundwork, foundations and everything else, including planning, involved in a high-volume new build.

T McGibney said:

Hardly if refurbishment involves replacement of doors, windows, insulation and decoration rather than the groundwork, foundations and everything else, including planning, involved in a high-volume new build.

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I suppose it's down to how derelict the dereliction is.

BIG-notorious said:

Increased housing capacity is increased housing capacity- a home can be extended and/or renovated using fewer resources than the equivalent new build, so there's a pretty strong argument that those are more efficient than new builds even if the raw metrics don't appear as good as they don't get recorded as new homes even though they very often are.

On a macro level , renovations will usually include energy efficiency measures which will give even more return on resources employed than a new build in the longer term.

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Retrofitting will imo reduce the redundancy levels of houses and is not something being considered in our housing supply need / fresh supply. The various housing supply need include some wild assumptions around this.

BIG-notorious said:

construction industry will build more homes out of the goodness of their hearts is even crazier than i am...

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Yep - pure madness......if/when Glenveagh or Cairn start generating outsized returns relative to builders in the UK or US and one can somehow claim that they are profiteering or whatever......but its funny to watch social lunatics get up in the Daill and talk about greedy developers making a killing when the returns in the sector are just pedestrian and not something thats going to get any capitalists hearts pumping faster.....indeed one can argue that a period of outsized returns to developers is exactly whats needed to bring MORE developers/capital/labor into the sector to generate an avalanche of supply.

I've always thought if these socialists had any true strategic thinking.....they would in the words of the Lenin "hang the capitalists with the rope that they sold us".......which is to say a socialist should have a look at the record of capital intensive long lead time industries (like home building)...its characterized by booms and busts.....read a book like Capital Returns by Edward Chancellor about capital cycle investing....its not hard to pull in an avalanche of international capital here to build stuff......build enough stuff and invariably those capitalists start experiencing negative returns......but with other people money suffering who cares if returns go south a little bit in five years time.....what a massive capital cycle produces on construction is by defintion nailed down to the ground and immobile......

If this Government or even a socialist one had their head screwed on they would make the returns to construction just so irrestablile in this country that we get a a flood of international investment money come in......which means a flood of supply.....capital cycle investing tells you what happens next.....returns go up, investment goes up, supply goes up, prices come down, returns go down, investment goes down......you want to solve the housing crisis.....ride the capital cycle!...implement Pharaoh's dream.....seven fat years (for internatioanl fund investors profits), followed by seven lean years (for the same capital)..........which is exactly what happens when you get an investment boom in capital intensive industry.

letitroll said:

If this Government or even a socialist one had their head screwed on they would make the returns to construction just so irrestablile in this country that we get a a flood of international investment money come in......which means a flood of supply.....capital cycle investing tells you what happens next.....returns go up, investment goes up, supply goes up, prices come down, returns go down, investment goes down

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Well yes. If you want to encourage an activity you need to reduce taxes and (to the extent that is reasonable) regulation on that activity. Which brings us back to VAT and making far more developments exempt from the requirement to obtain planning permission, and looking at the building regulations again.

• I disagree with the commonly held belief that homes should become more affordable. I think it's far more important that they should become more available. It is in my opinion far better that the average 25 year old is able to buy (or rent) their first home even if that means the wolf spends several years at their door (and sometimes gets through it) than the average 40 year old can more comfortably afford their first home. Water finds its own level, and the 40 year olds will either max out their borrowing capacity or opt for something more modesty according to their preferences.