CarrotStick
Registered User
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Yes, common enough with Ulster Bank. Have had sight of several.I never heard of a Euribor-tracking mortgage in Ireland.
Were they common?
Hi Skrooge, they were quite common between 1990 tp 2003, during this time Ulster also provided Prime 1 to Prime 5 interest rate mortgages. Then in 2006 it changed such mortgages (some say unilaterally) to it’s New Bank Cost of Funds Rate, which is essentially based on the one month euribor rate. Have you heard of UB’s bank cost of fund rate mortgages? From 2008/2009 most if not all mortgages issued by UB (with the exception of ECB rate tracker mortgages) were of this type, but, for some reason, were not included in the Tracker Rate Examination.Can't say I've heard of them but if they did as the name suggests they would have been an expensive product for consumers at the height of the banking crises. I presume people were quick to move off them.
Brendan, I don’t believe I got an answer to this important issue last time around, maybe I‘ll get a plausible response from someone who can answer the question this time, or someone in the CBI, Government or a consumer advocate will possibly read the thread and run with the ball.What a coincidence!
Someone else raised this issue a few years ago.
What type of properties are included in the redress scheme?
According to the Central Bank's FAQ.... What type of mortgage is covered by the Examination? The Examination covers all lenders that offered tracker mortgages to customers, including mortgages used for a family home or an investment property. For the avoidance of doubt, does the redress...www.askaboutmoney.com
Hi skrooge, you are right I got the dates completely wrong, apologies. I believe Euribor mortgages were introduced by UB in 2002.1990 is a long way back and whatever rate was there probably doesn't exist any more.
Besides, early 2000s is generally excepted as the introduction of tracker mortgages in Ireland. I doubt if anyone had introduced them beforehand they wouldn't have marketed the hell out of them.
"New Bank Cost of Funds Rate" might closely track the euribor but that doesn't make it the euribor. The cost of funds rate sounds like a marketing gimmick. I remember seeing the Woolwich building society offering a tracker rate in the UK. I had a little chuckle when I read the not so small print. That rate tracked some Barclays rate. It was just window dressing for a variable rate product. I imagine that most of the Ulster products were similar.
Stephen Hawkins disproved time travel by throwing a party for time travelers and no one turned up. In the same way perhaps the fact no one complained here or to the ombudsman means they're weren't really trackers.
Hi Skrooge,It would seem some kind of review and redress was conducted, for business lending at least.
Business Lending Interest Rate Review | Ulster Bank
In March 2012, Ulster Bank advised business customers (by letter and press announcement) that it was changing the definition of Cost of Funds, a variable component of the interest rate charged on their accounts, to better reflect the bank’s funding costs.www.ulsterbank.ie
Ultimately the devil's in the detail, specifically the customers "facility documentation". If the wording in the loan agreement were to have said that a tracker mortgage rates (A) tracks the BCOF rate (B), and it in turn it defined the BCOF as always equal to the euribor (C), without exception, then I imagine it could fall within the scope of the tracker review. I.e., A=(B=)C
However, if the loan documentation (or reference to some other relevant document) didn't define the BCOF then that ambiguity gives the bank liberty to change it as it liked. I.e., A=B≈C so the fact that B≠C in all instances means it's not a tracker.
I would imagine it's Ulster's argument that the mortgages you mention fall into the latter category. I've no idea if that is the case but there are contact details on the site for anyone who might wish to challenge them.
That was a great thread. It was difficult at times to keep up with the number of users the same person had conversing with themselves!What a coincidence!
Someone else raised this issue a few years ago.
What type of properties are included in the redress scheme?
According to the Central Bank's FAQ.... What type of mortgage is covered by the Examination? The Examination covers all lenders that offered tracker mortgages to customers, including mortgages used for a family home or an investment property. For the avoidance of doubt, does the redress...www.askaboutmoney.com
Based on the link I provided I think there's reasonable doubt that the BCOF tracks the euribor in a manner that would warrant mortgages linked to it being included in the review. There are 3 different version of the same rate!In relation to the tracker mortgage examination, there can be no doubt that the BCOF rate tracks the one month euribor. This is stated in Ulster. Bank’s definition of what makes up the BCOF rate. L
Any consumer advocates, solicitors, barristers care to reply.
I must also add that I have had a barrister or two as clients.
Why would you offer your PPR as security for a BTL mortgage? Or are you intentionally mixing different facilities together?5. PPR and other BTL’s
1) Thanks for you deep insights, the comment was obviously not intended for you.You already have clients that should be able to help:
Why would you offer your PPR as security for a BTL mortgage? Or are you intentionally mixing different facilities together?
Hi Scrooge, they are not the same rate, the definition of all three BCOF’s are different (Hence different interest rates apply). The fact of the matter is that that all three track the one month euribor rate but have different other components that make up the final interest rate, but the vast majority of the applicable interest rate charged to customers regardless of which BCOF comes from the the one month euribor and the fixed margin. Therefore, from the CBI’s own definition of what a tracker interest rate is, the BCOF mortgage should have been included in the tracker examination In the first instance This is the issue.Based on the link I provided I think there's reasonable doubt that the BCOF tracks the euribor in a manner that would warrant mortgages linked to it being included in the review. There are 3 different version of the same rate!
That's not to say they shouldn't have been included in the review if Ulster have indeed narrowly defined the BCOF as always equal to the euribor. You say this is stated, where exactly and what is the wording? I think this is the key evidence needed to support your claim.
I really don't see why a bank would offer a tracker linked to the euribor and not call it that. I don't see any benefit as a marketing tool to rebrand the euribor as BCOF. Rather it makes more sense to make the BCOF a rate that they can adjust as they like - which means it's not a tracker.
Of course banks - and this one in particular - have form in in doing silly things.
What is the definition of the BCOF that Ulster supplied to it's borrowers?The fact of the matter is that that all three track the one month euribor rate but have different other components that make up the final interest rate, but the ast majority of each of these BCOF rates directly track the one month euribor. Therefore, from the CBI’s own definition of what a tracker interest rate is, the BCOF mortgage should have been included in the tracker examination In the first instance.
"the rate of interest per annum determined by the Bank, in its absolute discretion, to compensate it for the costs of complying with any reserve asset and....any such other costs (direct or indirect) as the Bank may occur in raising funds in the market."
For the purposes of the Examination, a “Tracker Interest Rate” refers to the interest rate applied to a mortgage product: 1) which tracks a rate which comes from a publicly available source which can be verified by both the customer and the regulated entity,
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