What do landlords withhold a vacating tenant's deposit for?

J

Jeanmac

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Apologies in advance for a bit of a rant, but would like to get some perspective from others.


The house is going on the market, and the tenants had been given notice to vacate. They have vacated 3 weeks earlier than their notice date - and informed property company a few days after the fact. The house was the home of an elderly relative, who was in an nursing home and has since died sadly.

I am becoming aware of the fact that we should consider ourselves lucky that they vacated the house at all, and were up to date with their rent. The deposit has not been returned yet.

We are having healthy debates with the property management company about how much of the deposit should be withheld to deal with issues that are beyond wear and tear (in my opinion anyway). The property management are advising to return the full deposit, to avoid the tenants going to the PRTB.

The management company think (based on their direct dealings with the tenants) that if any deposit is withheld, that the tenants will go to the PRTB. And because it is difficult to argue with the PRTB about anything, that the tenants will have all complaints upheld.
It will therefore simply drag things on, and end up costing more money.

Is it really that bad?
For example, the front door keys are not returned. To take the cost of replacing the locks out of the deposit - will the PRTB really argue that one in favour of the tenants? The story is that they accidentally packed the keys away in their belongings and they are looking for them. Two weeks later, there is no sign of the keys.

Many other costs will have to be borne to repair the damage caused, all little jobs but the costs are really mounting up. They made zero attempt to clean up (and the house is very dirty), left a significant chunk of rubbish (skip will be required) behind but managed to remove all the light bulbs!

So if there are things that clearly cannot be argued with the PRTB, then I think we should use that to claw back something against the deposit.

The property management are strongly recommending to return the full deposit just to be done with it. Is this because they don't want the hassle themselves, or are they protecting the landlord's interest as the claim.

Thanks.
 
I have no direct experience of the RTB.

I do know that you need to take a day off work to argue your case.

For many people that is not worth the time and hassle. The risk is that the tenants will not bother either.


The management company is definitely looking out for itself. They don't want the RTB hassle either.
 
They have three weeks. Let them know you plan to hire and cleaner and a skip and will deduct the cost from from their deposit. (You can supply them with a copy of the receipts, give them back the rest of the deposit, if they don't) This usually works for me. The keys I consider a cost of renting. I usually change the barrel in the lock, when the tenants change.
 
Cleaner ? Really ? You would need to get a cleaner either way so I see this as a cost. Ditto the locks. There are always little bits and pieces that break along the way which is also just plain old wear and tear so if the tenants bring a case to the RTB you are on a hiding to nothing. I. too, am a londlord and I agree with Retired's last line above.
 
How long were tenants in house - you have to accept some wear and tear. I would ask them to take away their rubbish or you will have it taken away and deduct it from deposit. I would return the rest of the deposit and consider yourself luck that they left in good time.
 
Thanks for the feedback so far. Quite surprising.
I am not a "landlord" by choice, I was just helping out an elderly relative.
Things have certainly changed from the time I was renting.

They haven't paid for the 3 weeks, so not sure why they get 3 weeks.
We are dealing with over 2K "wear and tear" repair jobs so far, more to come.
The tenants have already informed the property management that they have no intention of returning to the house to clean, and consider that there is no issues at all. The fact that they left the house and only informed after the fact - to me that is complete rudeness. They also left keys hanging inside the sun room door (back of the house), and the door unlocked. They simply didn't care enough to secure the house.

Yes, we are lucky to be rid. I feel sorry for their new landlord.

Thanks for the perspectives.
 
Most of the LL I know have had a good experience of the RTB and the RTB decided in their favour.

But they would expect to absorb a certain amount of costs in setting up a place again after a long rental.
Stuff like keys locks, light bulbs is annoying but not something to take out of deposit. Its just trvial. Even if it all adds up.
 
The tenants left 3weeks earlier on notice and paid no rent in advance. They can do that if there is agreeement with the landlord.

Deposit
House in a mess and not clean
Take a photo of the days newspaper with you and take loads of photos of everything. From rubbish left in bins, dirty in kitchen, damage and also Of oven of oven.
Compare your inventory to what is left. You have to allow for some wear on the items.
Get estimate for the cleaning and deduct from deposit. If you have given notice they can leave at anytime as long as you agree. If they have kept the keys then charge for new locks. Have vat or receipts for everything.

Have a letter ready explaining why you deducted from the deposit.
E.g
Rent owed:
You were give notice to leave and no agreement was made to leave sooner therefor 3weeks rent deducted. Prorate
Cleaning:
You were given the house in a clean and fully painted. Carpets cleaned.
You are in the house 2years.
Kitchen was left dirty and oven not cleaned. Cost €60 attached receipt....etc.
Carpet cleaning €200 etc.
Belongings furniture left behind. Cost of skip €300.
List the reason for everything to justify the deduction from deposit.
Rubbish in the bins etc...
Damage to door /window etc...

If they go to rtb the you have proof that the place as left in a mess. Letter will help.
If they gave a forwarding address then send a letter to then with photocopy of the bills. If you want to go after them if the difference is higher than the deposit expect to back it up with proof.
If you don't have a forwarding address rtb should have it but in many cases they will not take the cases further if they say they cannot find them.

If they are in social the systems helps them not you. Think of the stress and time you have to put into it. Attending hearings and they may not attend. Day off from work for you. You are lucky to get your house back some will sit and not move.
Get the house ready for sale.

Did the agency give a reference? If so they would know where they have moved to if they are in a small town. It will come back to them in time to come..
 
As an experienced landlord, it is difficult to get an insight into the reality from reading your post.

On the one hand

They have moved out and you are still thinking about the deposit.

In my opinion the norm is for the deposit to be returned on moving out, even if the law allows some leeway.

Jeanmac said:
Is it really that bad?
For example, the front door keys are not returned. To take the cost of replacing the locks out of the deposit
Click to expand...

The keys are a thing of nothing.

In my eyes you are painting yourself in a poor light.

Jeanmac said:
I am not a "landlord" by choice, I was just helping out an elderly relative.
Click to expand...

This is completely irrelevant.

Actually I am struggling to find an "on the other hand" Dirty, light bulbs, not a lot.

A landlord needs to manage the moving out process just as much as the moving in process. You need to be telling them in advance what you expect from them in order to return the deposit. If you get all or most of that, you should return the deposit when they move out.

You didn't manage the process, ( I know they left early without telling you, but were you in contact with them discussing the move out, were you managing that process) and now you are in a mess.

You should do either of two things, (I suspect you will do neither).

1. Return the deposit in full now and move on.

2. Withhold the deposit in full and get started on the paperwork to justify that. Receipts for the locks, the cleaning, the skip, and all the little jobs you say really mount up. If they claim with the RTB, counterclaim for costs in excess of the deposit.

I know which I would choose.
 
So the answer to the question is that deposits are simply not withheld.

I didn't say earlier (but based on some of the feedback so far, and the tone of some of the feedback it is probably irrelevant) but we were left with no keys to the front door at all.

Also, the property management company were clear in that they were managing the end of the tenancy as they are paid to do.
All communication during the tenancy was through the property management company. When they visited the house after it was vacated they were shocked at the level of dirt and rubbish& damage left behind. They reported that tenants would not respond to letters, emails, texts, and wouldn't answer phone calls after the notification letter was sent, so we just had to work with the date as per the notification letter. So when they moved out 3 weeks earlier than that date and informed the property management company after the fact, it was unexpected. They paid the rent up until the date they vacated only, and not for the 3 remaining weeks. As they were always late with the rent, non-payment was not taken as an indication of anything untoward.

I don't know how the leaving process could have been managed better when one party doesn't engage. A phone-call/email even a few days in advance of their vacating the property (and being more upfront about the issue with the keys) would have made the whole process easier.

This is not an attempt to hold back a deposit from a "good tenant", and of course wear & tear and a certain amount of damage is to be expected. The purpose of the post was to get information based on people's experience about what a tenant is expected to do upon vacating, and at what the tipping point is that would make a landlord consider withholding part of the deposit.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and for the advice.
 
From personal experience, just give the deposit back and get rid.
You may well be correct in all you say but better to avoid spending time and money on trying to prove it.

Read some of the horror stories about tenants to get some perspective on how much worse it could have been overall.

Put your effort and energy into getting the house ready for market.
Don't look back!
 
Agree with Romulan. Be glad they are gone and you don't have a horror story on your hands.

Best of luck with selling the property
 
In my experience (and it is quite a number of years since I have rented), my deposits were not returned until after the property was vacated and the landlord had time to check that all utility bills etc were paid up to date. The return of the deposit usually took about a week or so.

It seems that I am in the minority, but I don't believe you should return their full deposit and move on.

If I was in that situation (also an accidental landlord but I have been very lucky with good tenants), I would do the following:

Not charge for 3 weeks rental for early departure (although they should have informed you, I would be glad to get rid of them).
Not charge for cleaning as I usually get contract cleaners between tenancies anyway, ditto oven cleaning, ditto carpet cleaning.
Charge for change of locks seeing as no front door key was returned (whether or not this is something that landlords may do as a matter of choice, you don't have the option to not change them as you have no access otherwise).
Charge for replacement of light bulbs (with whatever was there when they moved in - it's possible that they may have replaced these with more expensive LED's and therefore wanted to take them).
Charge for cost of waste disposal for the rubbish they left behind.

When my last tenants left (and these were good tenants, left the property clean etc), I would say the out of pocket costs were approximately 2k.
 
LL myself, though not had an experience like this. I would go with Nutso's approach though, if you have the time. LL's letting tenants away with this kind of thing is what makes them think they can get away with it in the first place. The deposit is one of the few levers of control LLs have left over troublesome tenants and in my view you have little to lose now that they've left, just time.

Having said that, before you write anything or appear in front of the PRTB I think you'd want to read around a bit on the realities of being a LL. As others have said, there's a certain amount of cleaning, replacing locks, keeping spare keys for the property, managing the process required, so you'll want to take that out of your narrative or I think you won't be getting too sympathetic a hearing. Focus on the big ones where the tenant is clearly in the wrong, leave out the minutiae no matter how frustrated you are by them. Property damage beyond wear and tear, theft of lightbulbs, dumping of rubbish in your property.

Keep in-mind this is a public forum and the "dirty landlords" are a hot topic in Ireland at the moment, so you will be getting replies from people who are LLs and people who are anti-landlord...
 
Hi Jeanmac,
What is specified in the letting agreement with respect to the return conditions of the property at end of lease ? If the agreed return condition is not expressly stated then it will be difficult to argue a subjective viewpoint which is not fully supported by a legal agreement with the tenant.

My experience of letting / management companies is that this is their bread and butter. They know the pitfalls better than anyone else as they see the good and the bad. Listen to them.

It is an unfortunate situation in Ireland whereby tenants want all the protections offered by continental style long life tenancy agreements of which the obligations and warranties lie with the landlord, but yet are unwilling to meet or undertake corresponding tenant obligations. That is the legal landscape in Ireland for residential lettings.

My view as a landlord is that if it is not set out in the tenancy agreement, then it will be difficult to enforce. Normal wear and tear is a subjective term and different people have different standards. My view, painful as it may appear is to learn from this experience and consider yourself lucky that the tenant did not overhold.
 
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