What about men?

Discussion in 'Letting Off Steam' started by Vanilla, Feb 1, 2018.

  1. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    4,086
  2. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    8,247
    Very interesting and well written, as well as being a valid perspective.
    I do think the issue is more nuanced than the author presents. It is beyond question that women face more challenges than men in our society generally. I think some of the push-back is the perception that the overwhelming majority about gender issues is focused on the challenges faced by women and that focus is disproportionate to the levels of discrimination etc they face. The reason for that may be the fact that women are better organised due to the terrible sexism and disadvantage they faced until relatively recently, or it could be a combination of factors. It could also just be misogynistic men who think women should "know their place". In reality it's more complex than the author suggests though her frustration is understandable; she is perfectly entitled to talk about women and girls, just as someone else is perfectly entitled to talk about men and boys.
     
  3. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    4,086
    Is that so. Because I was wondering why we would write an article concentrating on abuse of/discrimination against/sexism etc focused on women at all, after all, won't someone please think of the men, or some other group which have been discriminated against.

    Thank goodness you were able to point out it is more complex.
     
  4. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,717
    Interesting indeed, and well written. It did raise an eyebrow for me when she suggested that male suicide is a symptom of patriarchy. I didn't understand what she was getting at. But that aside, and to her main point, maybe some people just like to complain. There are an awful lot of complainers out there in this internet age of armchair keyboard warriors. Also interesting that a significant minority of her complainants were women. As further evidence that it's not just a man or woman thing, Cassie Jay (look her up on youtube) has the opposite experience with her documentary "The Red Pill". She was continually harangued for ignoring women in a documentary about men's issues, to the extent of people trying to get it banned in some countries.
     
  5. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    8,247
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    I don't get your point.
    The author correctly points out that it is reasonable to write about abuses and discrimination faced by women alone and that getting abuse for not talking about men at the same time is unreasonable. I am simply questioning her simplistic presentation of the reasons for that abuse.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  6. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    3,297
    Reminds me of Tommy Gorman asking Roy Keane 'What about the kids?' during Saipan.......

    Is this really a thing? Would any man here look at a breast cancer campaign and think 'Men get cancer too'....Or read a story from a female rape/sexual abuse victim and think men get abused too......

    Is she talking about men in real life that she has come across or just people on twitter/facebook etc who comment on these things and who aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of human beings......
     
  7. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    8,247
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    There mightn't be any here but yes, there are plenty of men who see a campaign to highlight an issue facing women and their first port of call is to look for a reason why it is really an attack on men. There are women who do the same thing when issues facing men are highlighted.
    There are occasions when it is legitimate to highlight that some issues are common to men and women but, for example, when domestic violence against women is highlighted, men shouldn't crib about the lack of support for male victims they should do something about it. On that issue the recent campaigns on TV and billboards has shown both men and women as victims. That shows that there isn't some grand feminist conspiracy against men.
    Sometimes men don't help themselves with the issues they highlight (violence doesn't have a colour, an ethnicity, or a religion but overwhelmingly it does have a gender) but then again either do women, the recent campaign about the gender pay gap being a good example as there is no factual evidence to support such a notion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  8. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    2,850
    There are a few in here too ;)
     
    Up Rovers likes this.
  9. Betsy Og

    Betsy Og Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    447
    One by-product of all the good work (me too movement etc), is that men, as a species, are facing a relentless wall of negativity through the media. When Matt Damon said, basically, y'know there's lots of good guys too, he was nearly lynched for it. Do we want all young males to see themselves as 'predators in waiting'?, does it benefit anyone that all this tarring with the same brush is happening? I'd say in Ireland the ongoing high profile rape case should, in due course, give a very good airing to the issue of consent, which will be a benefit to everyone. Just like the #metoo things spells out (were it ever needed) that the casting couch culture is just not on.
     
    Purple likes this.
  10. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    8,247
    I was talking to a friend of mine about gender issues recently. She said that before she was married both she and her wife were very focused on issues which are faced by the LGBT community. Now that they have a son she said that her views on that constitutes equality have broadened.
     
    odyssey06 likes this.
  11. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    8,247
    Matt Damon was the subject of vitriol because, during an interview he said "‘I do believe that there’s a spectrum of behavior, right? And we’re going to have to figure — you know, there’s a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation. ‘Both of those behaviors need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated, right?"

    Sounds like a reasonable thing to say? Well no, it wasn't. He was roundly attacked former co-star Mini Driver as well as other actors. As long as we conflate the minor and the major we are running the risk of diminishing and devaluing the major. It is unacceptable for a man to pat a woman on the bum and if he does it in a work setting he should lose his job but it's not a prison offence. But should that be but in the same bracket as rape?
     
  12. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    3,297
    Isn't that what Matt Damon was saying???
     
  13. Firefly

    Firefly Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    2,850
    I think somewhat related to this issue is the fear people have of saying anything at all about certain subjects. You simply cannot say what you feel on an ever increasing range of topics publicly, but a lot of people would hold the same or similar beliefs if they were honest with themselves. These things fester away and when there is an election, many are surprised with the outcome. I think in a lot of cases, there is just too much PC nonsense in the world. For this reason, I like the frankness of the likes of Michael O'Leary and the GP who is on the Last Word on Wednesdays (whose accent sounds exactly like Michael O'Leary's!).
     
  14. Betsy Og

    Betsy Og Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    447
    Can't say I see a whole lot wrong with that Matt Damon quote.
     
  15. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    4,086
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    I actually do despair, whataboutery in practice.

    Why do you need that validation? There are a lot of good guys who don't sexually harass women- well, I shouldn't have to tell you- that is what it should be, that is the norm, you don't need praise or validation for that. Why do you even need to say that? But you expect that praise, you expect every outcry of condemnation to be prefaced by- but not all guys are like that!

    Ok, so, at the risk of great irony, what about the men?

    There has been an increase in gang related crime- but not all men are involved in gangs, or in crime- aren't they great.

    There has been an increase in domestic violence- but not all of it ( even if it is the majority) is perpetrated by men. A significant minority of domestic violence is perpetrated by women. And not all men even attack their wives, aren't they great.

    Men are great, men are great, men are great. There, is that enough, or should we talk more about men?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  16. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    4,086
    Sunny, did you read the entire post? Because she clearly spells out the amount of comments she receives from men/women on varying issues.
     
  17. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,260
    It's not about validation... it's about men standing up and showing that there are ways to be men that doesn't involve acting in despicable ways, whether that's in gangs, or to women. That, in the specific case of Matt Damon, that there are ways of being a successful man in Hollywood other than the methods of a Harvey Weinstein. Maybe it shouldn't have to be said, but there's no harm and I find it very strange it would engender hostility and criticism...

    For me, it's a bit like, say, reclaiming the tricolour from Sinn Fein.

    In your gang analogy, it would be like successful businessmen and sportsmen from the communities that have gangs standing up and showing you can make it in this world, there is another path than gangs to belong and to succeed.
     
    Ceist Beag, Purple and Betsy Og like this.
  18. Vanilla

    Vanilla Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    4,086
    No, it's not at all about that. It's actually about not being about men.
     
  19. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,260
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    Going back to the original article, I agree with some of the points made, where the author accepts that it is reasonable to talk about men sometimes and women sometimes.
    But on the other hand, it is also reasonable to take a step back and ask "what about men", if there are a lot more specialists in studies of the female gender, than studies of the male gender... if there's a lot more research in the former than the latter.
    Is that a fair question to ask someone who specialised in one gender than the other? As an individual and in relation to her specific work, perhaps no, but as a member of that academic community, yes.

    If you read a history book of the American Civil War 50 years ago, it would have been legitimate to ask "what about the black experience"? Where are the books about that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  20. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,260
    It should be about men and women. If there are predators - in Hollywood, in business, on the streets - while women may be the victims, "good" men and women have a duty as witnesses and defenders and if those good people act in concert then we have a better chance of catching those predators, and creating environments in which they are shut out and shut down.