How exactly will the church "milk" this for all its worth? Will the Priest encourage all the other children to stay away from the outcast? Nonsense.
There is also the pressure the child exerts on the parents, which comes from the school and classmates and wanting to be the same as everybody else, which the Church will milk for all it's worth.
With respect, if all the people who didn't really believe in it, or didn't take it seriously were excluded from sacraments, there would be a lot of nearly empty churches, with few communions and even less weddings!
HC may be an intergral part of the school year for the majority, but for what reasons? Why does it have to take up most of the year? And if they do not make provision for those who do not want to be involved, is it ok for them to be discriminated against because they are in the minority? What happened to equality of education for all children? Doesn't exist from what I can see.
You don't think a non christian child attending a catholic school is discriminated against when he is told to sit alone in the back of the class for hours per week for months on end? Seriously? I had the odd idea that I sent my child to school to learn things, not to be ignored while the school did the job of the church.
I don't expect anything to be changed (though I would honestly prefer that sacrament instruction is done outside of core school hours). I think if the majority of people really want to do things like HC prep within school then fair enough. But are you telling me that I am unreasonable to expect that a provision is made for my child that does not involve putting him in the corner and ignoring him for half the year? The attitude that if the majority are happy then the minority can go swing is prevalent, though deeply discriminatory.
And I'm not implying anything about what the church wants, I wouldn't have the faintest idea about that. But you must admit that on a HC day, the church will be full of people that haven't been there since the christening, and before that, the wedding. The numbers of people who make a big fuss about the sacraments is hardly representative of those who attend mass every sunday, is it?
They could guarantee him a place in a multi-denominational school, so the problem doesn't arise in the first place.
It doesn't matter what size minority a child is in, a provision should be made. Its only one child, so it doesn't matter? When does it matter? 2, 5, 10? At what point do you say we will do something for children not of the majority religion? Every child deserves proper attention and education from their school, and not a single child should be give the lesson that they are unimportant and do not matter because they are not of the religion. And by not making any provision for that child that is exactly what you are saying.
Its the scale of it I object to. Its literally hours per week for months before the communion. It seems that in that year they do little else than HC. Am I seriously in the wrong that I expect that when my child is sent to school he is actually taught something? And if the majority don't even practice the religion, isn't it rather a sham anyway?
I agree with you liaconn. I think Catholic schools should be completely free to teach religion and prepare for sacraments. I just think that the utmost priority should be on providing fair and equal access to education for all children, and that not even one child loses out because s/he is not of a particular religion.
Perhaps if you were non-catholic you may not be that bothered, and may join in to a limited extent. But we are non-christian, staunchly atheistic, and we are faced with being in a position of having religious instruction practically forced on our children, because you can only opt out to a very limited extent.
Let me reiterate, I have no real objection to religious teaching in schools (in an ideal world I would prefer not, but practically speaking), and I appreciate that the majority is either actually catholic or happy to go along with catholic teaching. What I cannot understand is that in this day and age there is no option available to a non-catholic family to have their beliefs and needs respected in terms of equal access to education.
Let me reiterate, I have no real objection to religious teaching in schools (in an ideal world I would prefer not, but practically speaking), and I appreciate that the majority is either actually catholic or happy to go along with catholic teaching. What I cannot understand is that in this day and age there is no option available to a non-catholic family to have their beliefs and needs respected in terms of equal access to education.
Since when is it the right of the majority, who in all honesty are only nominally Catholic, to force religious instruction on those of different faiths, or of no faith at all? Are you seriously suggesting its a case of tough luck for something as important as education of our children?
Talking about equal access to education, should other faiths not have the same rights? Should they not be forced to attend a catholic school?. Should we have Jewish schools etc?
We have them.
What we don't have, unless I blinked and missed something, is non-denominational schools (and if there are any, they are very few).
Thats a feeble excuse in the extreme. Religious intolerance is fine because we're a bit strapped for cash? Bigotry costs less money than inclusive education, so lets be the most backwards nation in Europe for yet one more thing?
Not good enough.
Also, you seem to be implying that the Church just wants full pews, regardless of whether people are there with any real belief. Why would they want that?
And if you are seriously suggesting that Ireland is in such a bad economic position that we cannot afford a fair basic education for our children, then we should all just give up now.
You may disagree, but I see that as losing out. If for an hour a day, 5 days a week, one child is put in the corner of the room to sit alone, while the teacher gives their attention to the other children. If one child is isolated, and is not taught anything for 5 hours a week, while other children are? What about entire mornings when they go to mass, or entire afternoons dedicated to HC rehearsals?
And what about Easter and Christmas, and other catholic holidays? How many hours will be spent on nativitys and religious songs and prayers and even artwork of religious iconography? How do we opt out of all of that?
Perhaps if you were non-catholic you may not be that bothered, and may join in to a limited extent. But we are non-christian, staunchly atheistic, and we are faced with being in a position of having religious instruction practically forced on our children, because you can only opt out to a very limited extent.
Let me reiterate, I have no real objection to religious teaching in schools (in an ideal world I would prefer not, but practically speaking), and I appreciate that the majority is either actually catholic or happy to go along with catholic teaching. What I cannot understand is that in this day and age there is no option available to a non-catholic family to have their beliefs and needs respected in terms of equal access to education.
I am delighted that the community has a new school, I don't begrudge them at all. I just have this bizarre notion that a school should try to be inclusive and accomodate ALL of the children of the area, when those children have no choice to attend.
Is it really such a terrible thing to ask for?
in all fairness - WE all don't think this...We all know its wrong, and we all know its not simply a matter of money. The catholic churches control of the vast majority of Irish schools has to change. And it will.
Nowhere near 95% of pupils are practicing Catholics. If anything its the other way around. The real problem is that the vast majority of people just go along with it.
It doesn't matter how little money is available, its about attitude, not cash. And the attitude who say that non-catholic kids just don't count is appalling.
With due respect, all schools are different, and I have my information directly from the head teacher of the school. I am not exagerating at all.
There are options for non-practicing families, but not enough to meet demand, nowhere near. ET schools are vastly over-subscribed, while many catholic schools have places to burn. A little re-distribution of wealth would make a huge difference very quickly.
Move closer to the school? Good plan, now if only I could sell my house for anything remotely what I paid for it..........
I don't understand the justification going on here. We all know its wrong, and we all know its not simply a matter of money. The catholic churches control of the vast majority of Irish schools has to change. And it will. Unfortunately my son will be a casualty of an education system that sees him as less important than a catholic child.
Unfortunately my son will be a casualty of an education system that sees him as less important than a catholic child.
We all know its wrong
Bums on pews who contribute financially to the church, collection plate, payment for baptisms, weddings, funerals, church envelope etc...
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He is not allowed to leave the class when RE is being taught. If I will not allow him to be intsructed, he has to sit at the back of the class alone and wait until the next lesson starts. He will not be given an alternative activity as this is deemed to be disruptive to the rest of the class. .
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