The Lisbon vote

Purple · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

bond-007 said:
Explain?

We have a representative democracy for a reason. I don’t have the time, inclination or skills to make myself aware of legislation going through the Dail so I pay politicians to represent me in the chamber and vote on my behalf. If I don’t think they are voting in a way that is in line with my views I vote for someone else in the next election. There is no way that 95% of the people who vote on the Lisbon treaty will have a comprehensive grasp of the issues involved. Therefore they will vote from a position of ignorance. I think that this is not a good thing.

Purple · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
Even though I am a fan of the aims of the EU, I will be voting NO on this treaty. My reasons include the following:

1. There is a huge democratic deficit in the EU. This treaty does not address this and in fact solidifies some undemocratic principals. I know the current EU has a democratic deficit, but this should be solved before we move the EU project forward. This does not seem to be a big deal in many EU countries, mainly because many are not that long out of dictatorship and some even have unelected heads of state.

2. It is pushing ahead with new stuff when many of the existing EU countries (and those beyond) are not up to speed with the current stuff. All countries should have the EU currency. All should have free movement. All should be in Shengen. Those countries such as Norway & Switzerland who have benefits of freedom of movement & trade, yet none of the responsibilities and liabilities of EU membership should be told to either join the club or be on the outside - not a halfway house. We cannot have a pick and chose the bits you like type of EU membership. Everyone should accept the good and the bad on the basis that the overall package is good.

3. Interpretation points made on this forum are good. I've read the treaty and the english used is very bad and easily misinterpreted.

4. Language. Following on from 3. above. The EU needs to accept that it should only operate in 1 language - English. Otherwise we have the babels tower of misinterpretation etc. The big barrier to this is France. They must accept that the world does not revolve around them and nobody is interested in speaking French in the EU. The rest of the EU needs to tell them where to go with regard to bilingualism.

All very good points, but then again I can't stand Switzerland (as a political entity)so you're pushing an open door with me on that one

cjh · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
Even though I am a fan of the aims of the EU, I will be voting NO on this treaty. My reasons include the following:

1. There is a huge democratic deficit in the EU. This treaty does not address this and in fact solidifies some undemocratic principals. I know the current EU has a democratic deficit, but this should be solved before we move the EU project forward. This does not seem to be a big deal in many EU countries, mainly because many are not that long out of dictatorship and some even have unelected heads of state.

.

That's my main reason for voting NO too.

P.S. I agree we should be in Shengen - but it was our own government who decided to keep us out.

shnaek · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
We have a representative democracy for a reason. I don’t have the time, inclination or skills to make myself aware of legislation going through the Dail so I pay politicians to represent me in the chamber and vote on my behalf. If I don’t think they are voting in a way that is in line with my views I vote for someone else in the next election. There is no way that 95% of the people who vote on the Lisbon treaty will have a comprehensive grasp of the issues involved. Therefore they will vote from a position of ignorance. I think that this is not a good thing.

I agree in principle with the points you are making, however I do not trust our government to interpret for me a voluminous treaty such as this one. I would be more inclined to trust them if they promised to resign from politics if they are proven in the future to have gotten the interpretation wrong. That would lend credibility to their argument.

If they are putting nothing on the line as per usual, then how can we vote yes because they say 'Trust Us'? They say 'trust us' to run the health system too.

Superman · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

cjh said:
P.S. I agree we should be in Shengen - but it was our own government who decided to keep us out.

I believe it was the British government who decided to keep us out - Ireland merely wished to keep the existing arrangements with Britain and Northern Ireland where no passports were required and that was believed to be more important joining Shengen.

bond-007 · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Ireland merely wished to keep the existing arrangements with Britain and Northern Ireland where no passports were required and that was believed to be more important joining Shengen.

And that's where we fail. Following the UK for the sake of not upsetting the northerners.

GeneralZod · 22 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
Even though I am a fan of the aims of the EU, I will be voting NO on this treaty. My reasons include the following:

1. There is a huge democratic deficit in the EU. This treaty does not address this and in fact solidifies some undemocratic principals. I know the current EU has a democratic deficit, but this should be solved before we move the EU project forward.

Can you justify this point more?

csirl · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Where do you start? The EU Commission is not elected, yet it makes decisions that should have democratic accountability. The seats in the EU Parliament are not allocated evenly - some countries have more seats per population that others (I know Ireland is one of these, but that doesnt make it right). Also some countries with similar populations e.g. France & Poland, do not have a similar number of seats. There is also an attitude that if something wont fly with the Parliament, which has some democratic accountability, then just use the Commission to get it done. I know some people will argue that the Commission is appointed by various Governments etc. etc. and therefore is democratic because the Governments were elected. But I think that this argument is weak as the Commission is too many degrees of separation away from any sort of democratic accountability to make it democratic.

If I were reforming the EU and making it more democratically accountable, I think that I'd totally abolish the Commission and put in place a 2 chamber parliament. The lower chamber would be directly elected by proportional representation with each EU citizens vote carrying equal weight. I would have no more than a 2 or 3 hundred MEP rather than the cumbersome number we have now. The upper house, would help protect the individual identities of the member states, could be like the US Senate - have 2 Senators per EU country. You'd have a proper double lock system whereby for a law to pass you'd need a majority of the MEPs and a majority of the Senators.

Purple · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
If I were reforming the EU and making it more democratically accountable, I think that I'd totally abolish the Commission and put in place a 2 chamber parliament. The lower chamber would be directly elected by proportional representation with each EU citizens vote carrying equal weight. I would have no more than a 2 or 3 hundred MEP rather than the cumbersome number we have now. The upper house, would help protect the individual identities of the member states, could be like the US Senate - have 2 Senators per EU country. You'd have a proper double lock system whereby for a law to pass you'd need a majority of the MEPs and a majority of the Senators.

If we had that we’d have a de-facto federal EU. Broadly speaking I’m in favour of this but I strongly suspect that I am in the minority on this.

bond-007 · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

+1

I am in favour of a federal system. Makes more sense tbh.

shnaek · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

What would be the benefits of a federal system? What powers would it have that it doesn't have now?

csirl · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Its not so much as what powers would it have, its more to do with who is making the decisions and the fairness of those decisions.

efm · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Without wanting to take the discussion off course I think that the "EU" are certainly doing themselves no favours by voting not to allow disclosure of the report into expenses mis-use by MEP's.

jhegarty · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

bond-007 said:
Who produced this interpretation? The Irish Government or the EU commission?

This my main issue , it was written by the Irish goverment and no provision was made for an alternative view in the document the taxes payers are paying for...

room305 · 23 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
If we had that we’d have a de-facto federal EU. Broadly speaking I’m in favour of this but I strongly suspect that I am in the minority on this.

You can add me to that small band.

BillK · 24 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

At least you are getting to vote in a referendum; the UK government refuses to allow a referendum in UK even though such referendum was promised in the Labour party's manifesto.

Protocol · 24 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

CSIRL,

the European Commission do not make decisions.

It is a powerful institution at the heart of the EU, but it does not have the final say on decision-making.

It proposes new policies, implements policies, and supervises spending.

But the key decision-making body is the Council of Ministers.

ajapale · 27 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Now this is my kind of Europe!

The capital of the Atlantic Zone would be Lisbon.

GeneralZod · 27 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Last time I checked Norway wasn't in the EU.

ajapale · 27 Apr 2008

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Its from The Sun 23 Apr 2008. and purports to show what those EUrocrats have in store for us all Including Norway, England etc.

The Lisbon vote

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