The death of Ashling Murphy

[cremeegg]

There has been much conversation around the death of this young woman over the last week. A number of points stand out in my mind.

Her death is a tragedy for herself, her family, friends and wider community.

The many commemorations have impressed me with their dignity. I think they show Ireland at its best.

A number of commentators seem to have suggested that the death was a greater tragedy because she was talented, accomplished, a young woman etc. I don't like this train of thought. The death of cleaner is as tragic as the death of a teacher. The death of a man as tragic as the death of a woman. I would recognise that the death of a young person is always worse than the death of an older person.

The public debate has entered on the question of women's safety. I believe that it is appalling that anyone cannot go about their business without the fear of violent attack. In reality the chances of being attacked in public are very low, and women are not at more risk than men.

One-third of homicide victims in 2021 were women

Proportion is highest since 2017, with most allegedly killed by partner or ex-partner

www.irishtimes.com

It serves no purpose to make women afraid to live public lives. There is danger, it is small, it affects women no more than men. Domestic violence on the other hand does probably affect women to a greater extent than men.

The idea is gaining ground that education of boys must be focussed to address misogyny. I think this is a good idea in itself, indeed the reduction even elimination of homophobic slurs in the school yard has resulted from a similar effort. I don't think it has much connection with rape or sexually motivated murder, homophobic attacks still occur.

It is not men or Romanians or Syrians or Slovaks that are responsible for murder, it is murderers that are responsible for murder. And boys or Romanians etc should not be told that society believes otherwise.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You're a brave person (gender neutral) to raise this subject which has reached Diana proportions. Whilst I agree with the thrust of your post I won't risk any further comment.

 

[Purple]

The issue is men's violence. It is overwhelmingly the case that it is men that murder men and men that murder women. I don't think that this should be framed as a men against women issue, it should be framed as a men's violence issue.

When grown men think that hitting someone is the way to win an argument, when being stronger and using physical size to intimidate anyone, man or woman, is acceptable, that's toxic masculinity.
If 'having a straightener' is the solution then you'll hit someone who annoys you and if you'll hit a man in that circumstance you'll also hit a woman. You can kid yourself that you won't but you will. If you're drunk enough and angry enough and coked-up enough and she's 'annoying you' enough. People don't turn into killers like that overnight. It takes years of small steps, of one more little thing becoming acceptable.

Men are aggressive by nature. We are mammals, hairless apes (women are hairless apes too). We are driven by testosterone, just as all other male mammals are. We usually channel that into work or something constructive. It is that drive, that aggression, that creates the singlemindedness that built the modern world and may well be in the process of destroying it. It builds cities and starts wars. It causes aeroplanes to be built and genocides to happen.

Therefore saying that this is the fault of men may be true in a broad context but it isn't going to fix the problem unless we get rid of all the men.

I suggest that a good start would be to make all schools co-educational, make wolf-whistling and cat-calling and that sort of thing a criminal offense, and make the owners of social media companies criminally liable for what is hosted on their platforms. We also need a grown-up conversation about pornography.

On the specifics of femicide I'd like to see information about the link between mental health issues and addiction and those who perpetrate the crimes. The mental health industry fails young men, particularly young men from poor backgrounds who have addiction issues, and mental health and addiction go hand in hand. The tragic case of Sinead O'Connor's son, sent out into the world the day after being admitted to hospital, is by no means unusual. Just as being an addict doesn't excuse criminality just putting addicts in prison doesn't reduce addiction or the criminality it causes.

It would be good to see all this energy channelled into solutions, not just very understandable anger and grief.

Men are the problem, but just saying that isn't a solution.

 

[RetirementPlan]

There has been much conversation around the death of this young woman over the last week. A number of points stand out in my mind.

Her death is a tragedy for herself, her family, friends and wider community.

The many commemorations have impressed me with their dignity. I think they show Ireland at its best.

A number of commentators seem to have suggested that the death was a greater tragedy because she was talented, accomplished, a young woman etc. I don't like this train of thought. The death of cleaner is as tragic as the death of a teacher. The death of a man as tragic as the death of a woman. I would recognise that the death of a young person is always worse than the death of an older person.

The public debate has entered on the question of women's safety. I believe that it is appalling that anyone cannot go about their business without the fear of violent attack. In reality the chances of being attacked in public are very low, and women are not at more risk than men.

One-third of homicide victims in 2021 were women

Proportion is highest since 2017, with most allegedly killed by partner or ex-partner

www.irishtimes.com

It serves no purpose to make women afraid to live public lives. There is danger, it is small, it affects women no more than men. Domestic violence on the other hand does probably affect women to a greater extent than men.

The idea is gaining ground that education of boys must be focussed to address misogyny. I think this is a good idea in itself, indeed the reduction even elimination of homophobic slurs in the school yard has resulted from a similar effort. I don't think it has much connection with rape or sexually motivated murder, homophobic attacks still occur.

It is not men or Romanians or Syrians or Slovaks that are responsible for murder, it is murderers that are responsible for murder. And boys or Romanians etc should not be told that society believes otherwise.

It's not just about murder though. It is about all levels of harassment and violence against women by men. It is about the multiple instances of reports of harassment of women while actually attending vigils for Aisling Murphy. It is about the 100 or so women who had to witness the gent who decided to play with himself on camera at the online vigil for Aisling Murphy. It is about the secondary school girls who report that one of the two main reasons why they won't cycle to school is because of harassment by boys and men simply because they cycle.

There are very real dangers that absolutely affect women of all ages more than men.

 

[Purple]

It's not just about murder though. It is about all levels of harassment and violence against women by men. It is about the multiple instances of reports of harassment of women while actually attending vigils for Aisling Murphy. It is about the 100 or so women who had to witness the gent who decided to play with himself on camera at the online vigil for Aisling Murphy. It is about the secondary school girls who report that one of the two main reasons why they won't cycle to school is because of harassment by boys and men simply because they cycle.

There are very real dangers that absolutely affect women of all ages more than men.

My daughter said that levels of harassment from men she experiences have reduced since she stopped wearing a school uniform. So grown men, many old enough to be her father, are more inclined to harass females when they know they are looking at a child than they are when they think they are looking at an adult.

What sort of sick twisted men are out there and what sort of sick twisted men remain silent when their pier group behaves like that? What does that say about society in general and men in particular because that's learned behaviour.
From that baseline add mental health and addiction and a more pervasive culture of violence and it's easy to see how we end up with dead women.

 

[Baby boomer]

Some really excellent points made by @Purple and @RetirementPlan above. I'd also highly commend the article by Kathy Sheridan in the Irish Times today.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...s-the-soup-in-which-boys-are-raised-1.4779671 Although some of the comments underneath it leave me aghast at their sheer stupidity and wilful failure to see the problem.

I also think a huge piece of the jigsaw is domestic violence along with coercive control. As a society, we have completely failed to tackle this.

 

[Purple]

I'd also highly commend the article by Kathy Sheridan in the Irish Times today.

+1 to that. Excellent piece.

 

[cremeegg]

The issue is men's violence.

There are a number of issues. The one that concerns me here is the question of women being able to go about their business in public.

The numbers of women who are murdered by strangers is very small. Certainly one is too many, but the perception is gaining ground that women are in meaningful danger of being killed while living their daily life.

The reality is that women are in less danger than men, and while neither women nor men should be in any danger the actual danger as opposed to the perceived danger, of being killed by a stranger, in Ireland is tiny.

 

[cremeegg]

Men are aggressive by nature. We are mammals, hairless apes (women are hairless apes too). We are driven by testosterone, just as all other male mammals are. We usually channel that into work or something constructive. It is that drive, that aggression, that creates the singlemindedness that built the modern world and may well be in the process of destroying it. It builds cities and starts wars. It causes aeroplanes to be built and genocides to happen.

Don't women build cities and start wars ?

Don't women single-mindedly pursue their own goals, sometime to the detriment of others?

I think they do, but if they do not I think they should. I would like to see my daughter partaking in building the future every bit as much as my son.

I would go further, I think the responsibility for building the future lies as heavily on my daughter as my son.

 

[Purple]

Don't women build cities and start wars ?

Far fewer.

Don't women single-mindedly pursue their own goals, sometime to the detriment of others?

Far less.

I would like to see my daughter partaking in building the future every bit as much as my son.

Same here with my two daughters but broadly speaking women are less likely to have that single minded drive. On balance I think we as a species may be better off without it. When it's just men in charge they tend to screw things up. We let our ego and that testosterone run wild and that rarely ends well.

I would go further, I think the responsibility for building the future lies as heavily on my daughter as my son.

I agree and if it does it will be a better future. That is, ultimately, where this conversation goes. The behaviour we see in men and boys that leads to murders like this is a legacy of a time when the only voices that were heard were men's. It's the societal equivalent of having a tail bone.

 

[RetirementPlan]

There are a number of issues. The one that concerns me here is the question of women being able to go about their business in public.

The numbers of women who are murdered by strangers is very small. Certainly one is too many, but the perception is gaining ground that women are in meaningful danger of being killed while living their daily life.

The reality is that women are in less danger than men, and while neither women nor men should be in any danger the actual danger as opposed to the perceived danger, of being killed by a stranger, in Ireland is tiny.

Murder isn't the only issue, or even the major issue. Everyone knows that murder is rare, though obviously the impacts are huge.

The major issue is the endemic levels of routine harassment, the cat-calling, the 'smile, it might never happen' intrusions, the comments on clothes and looks, the fact that women have to worry about what route to take, what bus or tram to take, what to wear, how much to drink, in ways that men rarely have to consider.

We've a long way to go.

 

[Purple]

Murder isn't the only issue, or even the major issue. Everyone knows that murder is rare, though obviously the impacts are huge.

The major issue is the endemic levels of routine harassment, the cat-calling, the 'smile, it might never happen' intrusions, the comments on clothes and looks, the fact that women have to worry about what route to take, what bus or tram to take, what to wear, how much to drink, in ways that men rarely have to consider.

We've a long way to go.

There is a debate to be had at some stage in the future about whether women are more at risk of attack etc than men are but what matters now is that women do worry about what route to take, what bus or tram to take, what to wear, how much to drink, in ways that men rarely do.

If the routine harassment, the cat-calling and all the things that contribute to them feeling unsafe were dealt with then the debate about actual risk of serious attack etc would be worth having but as things stand it's not. It's a deflection by the men who excuse all the "low level" stuff as harmless.

 

[cremeegg]

Men are aggressive by nature. We are mammals, hairless apes (women are hairless apes too). We are driven by testosterone, just as all other male mammals are. We usually channel that into work or something constructive. It is that drive, that aggression, that creates the singlemindedness that built the modern world and may well be in the process of destroying it. It builds cities and starts wars. It causes aeroplanes to be built and genocides to happen.

I have been thinking about this a lot over the last few days. You, and many others seem to be suggesting that there is something in men generally that can lead to acts like the killing of Ashling Murphy. Drive, aggression etc.

I can agree that men may have more of these things than women, and that they can lead us into bad places. What I cannot accept is that this male aggression has anything to do with a killing like this, other types of killing, domestic violence yes.

Were I (or men generally) much more aggressive and much less self controlled I might well commit a murder, however there is nothing in me (or I think in men generally) that would prompt me to attack a stranger jogging along a canal.

The person responsible for this crime is not typical of whatever gender they have anymore than whatever nationality they are.

 

[Baby boomer]

...What I cannot accept is that this male aggression has anything to do with a killing like this, other types of killing, domestic violence yes.

Were I (or men generally) much more aggressive and much less self controlled I might well commit a murder, however there is nothing in me (or I think in men generally) that would prompt me to attack a stranger jogging along a canal.

Fortunately it is very, very rare that anybody going jogging along a canal (or in a similar public place) is violently attacked by a stranger. However, on almost every single occasion this happens, the attacker turns out to be male. That's a reality and it must be acknowledged.

The person responsible for this crime is not typical of whatever gender they have anymore than whatever nationality they are.

Of course the perpetrator is not typical of men generally. But, while most men do not perpetrate crimes like this, most perpetrators that do are men. Men are more aggressive than women generally, and the men at the extreme end of the male aggression distribution curve are more aggressive than the women at the extreme end of the female aggression curve.

 

[Purple]

I have been thinking about this a lot over the last few days. You, and many others seem to be suggesting that there is something in men generally that can lead to acts like the killing of Ashling Murphy. Drive, aggression etc.

I can agree that men may have more of these things than women, and that they can lead us into bad places. What I cannot accept is that this male aggression has anything to do with a killing like this, other types of killing, domestic violence yes.

Were I (or men generally) much more aggressive and much less self controlled I might well commit a murder, however there is nothing in me (or I think in men generally) that would prompt me to attack a stranger jogging along a canal.

The person responsible for this crime is not typical of whatever gender they have anymore than whatever nationality they are.

I agree with much of that but as @Baby boomer points out the aberrant behaviour that leads to murders like this is the preserve of men.

This narrative around this case is worrying to me because this was such a rare incident. The reality is that nearly all non gangland murders are committed by people known to the victim. They are usually a family member or intimate partner and in the vast majority of cases it's a man killing a woman.

I also don't like the narrative that if a man kills a woman it's because he's a monster and if a woman kills a man it's also because he's a monster. It's common for both parties in a relationship to be abusive, I'd say it's more than common. That abuse can take different forms and none of it is acceptable. Absolutist positions and using the problem of domestic abuse to further a political or social agenda is unhelpful. None of that changes the fact that men are the ones who usually resort to violence (70%-75% of cases of physical abuse are men on women) and men are almost always the ones who kill.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Fortunately it is very, very rare that anybody going jogging along a canal (or in a similar public place) is violently attacked by a stranger. However, on almost every single occasion this happens, the attacker turns out to be male. That's a reality and it must be acknowledged.



Of course the perpetrator is not typical of men generally. But, while most men do not perpetrate crimes like this, most perpetrators that do are men. Men are more aggressive than women generally, and the men at the extreme end of the male aggression distribution curve are more aggressive than the women at the extreme end of the female aggression curve.

Again, it's not mainly about murder. It is about the constant levels of harassment and aggression, that is mostly male against female.

 

[Leo]

Again, it's not mainly about murder. It is about the constant levels of harassment and aggression, that is mostly male against female.

In general terms, males still make up the majority of victims of 'harassment and aggression'. It's when you cross the lines into sexual harassment and violence do you get to a predominantly male perpetrator / female victim. Those make up 10-15% of such cases.

 

[RetirementPlan]

In general terms, males still make up the majority of victims of 'harassment and aggression'. It's when you cross the lines into sexual harassment and violence do you get to a predominantly male perpetrator / female victim. Those make up 10-15% of such cases.

And males would make up the majority of the perpetrators of assault cases across the board, regardless of the gender of the victim.

 

[Purple]

In general terms, males still make up the majority of victims of 'harassment and aggression'. It's when you cross the lines into sexual harassment and violence do you get to a predominantly male perpetrator / female victim. Those make up 10-15% of such cases.

How Common is Domestic Abuse in Ireland? The results show that 15 per cent of women (or about one in seven) and six per cent of men (or one in 16) have experienced severely abusive behaviour of a physical, sexual or emotional nature from a partner at some time in their lives. One woman in 11 has experienced severe physical abuse in a relationship, one in 12 has experienced sexual abuse and one in 13 has experienced severe emotional abuse. One man in 25 has experienced severe physical abuse, one in 90 has experienced sexual abuse in a relationship and one in 37 has experienced severe emotional abuse. These figures show that while the risk to women is higher, domestic abuse is something that also affects a significant number of men. The survey suggests that in the region of 213,000 women and 88,000 men in Ireland have been severely abused by a partner at some point in their lives. According to the ERSI;
How Common is Domestic Abuse in Ireland?
The results show that 15 per cent of women (or about one in seven) and six per cent of men (or one in 16) have experienced severely abusive behaviour of a physical, sexual or emotional nature from a partner at some time in their lives.

One woman in 11 has experienced severe physical abuse in a relationship, one in 12 has experienced sexual abuse and one in 13 has experienced severe emotional abuse. One man in 25 has experienced severe physical abuse, one in 90 has experienced sexual abuse in a relationship and one in 37 has experienced severe emotional abuse.

These figures show that while the risk to women is higher, domestic abuse is something that also affects a significant number of men. The survey suggests that in the region of 213,000 women and 88,000 men in Ireland have been severely abused by a partner at some point in their lives.

 

[Leo]

And males would make up the majority of the perpetrators of assault cases across the board, regardless of the gender of the victim.

Yes, they do, no arguments there. Men make up 80% of the offenders in assaults and related offences. Of course men are much less likely to report all forms of assault, but that's for another time.

I was just correcting your false statement.