stupid planning laws

hi

i have been living in south county dublin all my life in my family home which sits on approx 9 acres of land. Recently i decided that i was going to try build my own home and went about getting all the info i would need. After speaking to a builder i was advised to arrange a pre planning meeting to see how the land lied with the council. After many many emails and messages left for the relivant person i got a call back this morning and am in complete shock at the answers i got. I have been told that getting permission is extremly unlikley as i dont really have a need to live there i.e i dont farm the land ( i work about 20mins away ) and because the house would be visible when people look up at the dublin mountains and the area is for everyone to admire unspoiled. I think these reasons are unnexceptable and ridiculous. Has anyone experianced or heard so such things

What, you're annoyed because you can't stick yet another bungalow on the Dublin mountains? Why would you think that argument is unacceptable? I for one am delighted that the planners are finally starting to accept that sometimes the greater good is more important than allowing development whereever landowners feel like it.

However, I wouldn't worry. I'm sure once you get your local T.D. on the case the planners will roll over, as they always eventually do in this country. :mad:

i disagree...if a developer approched the council with a plan for housing development and planned to give Xmillion to the council then they would get planning etc, one off houses are not worth the hassel for the council, what they get is a few K, all they want is big developers coming in, it has nothing to do with the beauty of the dublin mountains...also you never know who the planner is working with and what plans they might have for that area with developers!!!

I think sherman you are living in ivory towers if you think the council are taking note, all they are waiting for is a developer

Unfortunately johnnyg you're probably right

Sherman said:

What, you're annoyed because you can't stick yet another bungalow on the Dublin mountains? Why would you think that argument is unacceptable? I for one am delighted that the planners are finally starting to accept that sometimes the greater good is more important than allowing development whereever landowners feel like it.

However, I wouldn't worry. I'm sure once you get your local T.D. on the case the planners will roll over, as they always eventually do in this country. :mad:

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what do you mean the greater good. Is it that i move down the country somewere away from the area i was raised in, away from my parents who are both in there late 70's commute for 2-4 hours per day just so people dont see a speck on the top of a mountain which is on a site were 99% of people in dublin would never find let alone have walked past it

Hi dbrady01, if it's family land and you are already living in the locality the planners can't stop you getting planning permission. It doesn't matter what you do for a living or where.

What they can do is make you adjust the orientation, siting, facing etc. of the house so it fits in the "rural amenity" (whatever they take that to mean!).

My advice would be to get a local engineer who specialises in single house planning and see what they have to say about your options. Don't rely on doing it yourself or getting the builder to do it. Be prepared to compromise on the design and orientation of your house.

There are many house designs that could be used, e.g. a sod roof facing out of the mountains, a 'traditional' Irish long-house in local stone etc., that would come within acceptable guidelines.

By the way, your local need is that you need to be near to your parents to support them as they age. You are perfectly entitled to want to do this in your own home (and not in theirs!). This should be made clear on any planning application.

Come on, Sherman.. The OP is trying to get planning for one house on a 9 acres site, he is not trying to build 1000 houses!!!

I am yet to see an application from SDCC for the destruction they did along the Wicklow way going up to 3 rocks to allow for heavy machinery to go up & down. They cut into the mountains..:mad: after having cutting 1000s of trees.

10000s of trees have been cut along the Wicklow way, pretty much from place indicated above to the Water Fall. I am sure trees will be replanted, by the way it has been done is appaulling, it looks like complete destruction... and in the mean time and for the next 20years, it looks like Hiroshima 52 years ago up there...

dbrady01, if you're that annoyed at the first set-back, prepare to be absolutely livid (and in the madhouse) by the time the house gets built (if ever!)

Is the land zoned for farmland?
Does your particular council have rules regarding family members and buliding houses on parents' land?

You need to plan this buillding campaign like a war campaign. Firstly, being told you are unlikely to get permission is just a shot across your bow. Take it as that and aske them to write down in detail the reasoans why this is so (not just vague statements like "you don't really need to live there" or "people would see the house when they look up the mountains")

dbrady01 said:

arrange a pre planning meeting to see how the land lied with the council. .... I have been told that getting permission is extremly unlikley

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Don't take no from pre-planning meeting as a definite no.... Apply and see if 1- it is a no and 2- exactly why they would not grant permission...
Permission can not be rejected without very good reasons, decision can be appealled...

yoganmahew said:

Hi dbrady01, if it's family land and you are already living in the locality the planners can't stop you getting planning permission. It doesn't matter what you do for a living or where.

What they can do is make you adjust the orientation, siting, facing etc. of the house so it fits in the "rural amenity" (whatever they take that to mean!).

My advice would be to get a local engineer who specialises in single house planning and see what they have to say about your options. Don't rely on doing it yourself or getting the builder to do it. Be prepared to compromise on the design and orientation of your house.

There are many house designs that could be used, e.g. a sod roof facing out of the mountains, a 'traditional' Irish long-house in local stone etc., that would come within acceptable guidelines.

By the way, your local need is that you need to be near to your parents to support them as they age. You are perfectly entitled to want to do this in your own home (and not in theirs!). This should be made clear on any planning application.

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The OP should be engaging a qualified good architect with experience and probably specialisation in rural dwelling design. No offence to any engineer but architectural design is not their profession, engineering design is....., and this case seems to be in an area of special conservation, so the visual impact of the dwelling is paramount.....

to dbrady1,
firstly, if you do decide to apply, prepare for a long planning timescale... the first application may be refused..... if the reasons for refusal can be resolved, then do so any reapply..... if these reasons cannot be resolved, then consider if an appeal to the bord is likely to change the decisions.
Currently rural housing guidelines do state a positive presumption towards permission should be given to persons who have a long time affilation with a local area, so if you are livin on this landholding all your life you comply with this requirement.
Secondly, is the landholding in an area of special amenity or conservation?? if so, check out the county development plan and find out what the issues are with applications there.....

prepare yourself for around a year to obtain planning....

dbrady01 said:

what do you mean the greater good. Is it that i move down the country somewere away from the area i was raised in, away from my parents who are both in there late 70's commute for 2-4 hours per day just so people dont see a speck on the top of a mountain which is on a site were 99% of people in dublin would never find let alone have walked past it

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Pretty much that's what I mean. You don't have some divine right to live where you were brought up. When are we going to start realising that the rural/natural environment in this country is there for the enjoyment of all, and not just landowners who want to build a house in mammy's back garden?

From what you said in your original post about people being able to see a house on your land, I assume your farm is very visible, rather than 99% of people never finding it - you need to realise that the view there is for the benefit and enjoyment of all. I understand your predicament but we do need to protect what little bit of green belt we have left around Dublin, and not just throw up 4,000sq. ft. bungalows willy-nilly.

Like I said however, I'm sure Messrs. Kitt and Brennan will see you right eventually.

Sherman i dont live on a farm .My family home is a modest 3 bedroom bungalow, small stables and a garage for 2 cars all of which is only really noticable at night if all the lights are on. I would not be building anything as big as 4000 sq ft it would be half that if even. MY family have been living in this area for a long time and have contibuted to it greatly and i cant understand why i should be refused on the grounds that i dont need to live there or that the life of someone in dublin city will be so greatly effected that is warrants a refusal

i know i dont have a right to live were i am from or as you put it " in mammy's back garden " but could the same not be said for the benefit and enjoyment of views. Who is to say which " right " is greater

personally i think people DO have a right to live where they are from and brought up. In my view it greatly enhances society if families can be kept close together where the younger can look after the older etc and histories can be formed in localities where traditions can be passed down etc...

I've been thru the planning mill myself and succeeded in the end against one of the most notorious councils in the country. I grew up and still live on a large family farm that has been rented/owned by the family since the 1790s and the council still refused me, while at the same time granting 2 houses next door to a family that were practically blow-ins! let's just say i have little regard for the intelligence of planners that work in my councils planning office.

anyhow, I learnt a lot from the planning process. The best thing I ever did was fire my incompetent architect and deal with appeals etc myself. First of all, you need to do your homework. Trawl through the development plan for any points which you can use as your reason to build there...Be sure to check any new variations they have introduced or may introduce in the near future.

Apply to the council with as detailed an application as possible, with as much background info as possible...including school reports and anything at all that my link you to the area you grew up with...club memberships etc..etc

be prepared to be refused!!!

now, the thing is, you can quite easily appeal to an bord pleanala if you're refused...the trick is to find some other cases in your area, where the council have granted permission that have not been in line with their development plan ie where they have broken their own rules...and also trawl through all the bord pleanala inspectors reports on their website for you district. you can pick up invaluable tips that you can use in your appeal .

once you point any discrepencies out to an bord pleanala, they're pretty much obliged to give you permission...otherwise you can actually take them to the high court. but an bord pleanala will not help you on this matter, you've got to point it out to them and give concrete examples and planning references etc. be prepared to name and shame!!

best to be armed with this before you submit any planning applications as you only have 4 weeks to get together a good appeal once you've been refused.

and no, i didn't stoop so low as to go lick up to some councillor or politician. i preferred to play the council at their own game and win.

I agree with most of what BB12 says , you are definitely not dealing with cohearent regulations or intellligent bureaucrats and as for Councillors ....
But as some one who just got planning , I would say it's worth talking to Councillors , they will tell you that they can't influence , but they "may" be able to advise if you are about to be refused . If this happens I was advised to withdraw the file and re-submit later with necessary adjustments , apparently a file with a "refused" stamp will hinder later attempts .
Ask local people who have been successful , which Councillors , Archetects etc they used , as some people have a better understanding of how things work than others .
pjq
PS If anyone thinks that this is skulduggery , just immagine what happens in the Galway tent .

The pre-planning meeting mentioned by the OP doesn't sound like a meeting at all - just a phone call.

Arrange a proper meeting. Talk about what you want to build and why. Ask for the planner's advice on what would be treated favourably. Get up close with the planner, and get him on your side. It can work.

That said, try to build sensibly!

I teach this stuff and I tell my students to think like this:

Questions your clients ask.
1. Can I build what I want where I want? Answer: No.
2. Anyway, who is going to know? Answer: Oh believe me, you'll be found out.

Work from the starting point that there are rules and regulations. Rant all you like about unfairness and stupid planning laws but start off with the idea that there are rules and regulations. Educate yourself and get the best advice you can from people who know about these things. I'm not convinced that the average "joe soap" (myself included) has the necessary expertise to do what bb12 (allegedly) did but it would certainly save you a lot of money (although take up a huge amount of your time) if you dealt with it yourself. I'd prefer to go the road of good local architect, well recommended, who understands the local rules.

mf

Great, more eyesores in the middle of the bog. When we want to increase petrol tax to fund public transport you'll be the first one complaining about the fact that you live miles away from anywhere.

Nermal ,
Petrol expenses are increased to fund public transport in well administered countries , we are not in this category . When we voted in June , the vast majority (FF & Fg ) voted for more ( or less) of the same.
I have lived in 1st world cities and loved it , but now that I have returned to Ireland , the option of 1st world city living is not available. Many of us would leave the "bog" to be near schools , music lessons and pools if our urban areas were not such an "eye-sore" devoid of amenities and metro.

pjq

My blood is boiling with some of the posts coming from people who bedgudge people something that I believe they are entitled to.
So Sherman et al, its not ok for someones parents to have worked very hard and saved hard (when times were much much tougher than they are now) so that they would have some land where their family might some day live on it and look after them and the council can decide that they they "dont want" a house to be built there!! but its ok for a developer to come in and get a huge amount of land re zoned and build a couple of thousand ugly houses on the side of the mountain... That really makes sense... right!! I could go on and give you tonnes of example in South Dublin!

Anyway.. To come back to the original poster, dbrady. I do feel sorry for you. It took us 5 years to get it but we have it now and we have built it. (It cost us about 100K more because of the time we had to wait for planning and additional costs for fees for architecture etc) but it is worth it.
Its really important to put a good file together promoting the reasons why you want to live in the area, member of local clubs, bank accounts, kids in school, ageing parents etc.... everything plus the fact that you work their. We prepared 2 A4 3" binders complete. Go to the council and ask them what type of house is acceptable - that you are open for suggestions and dont take no for an answer. Its really important also before you do anything to talk to your local councillors - if you in sdcc please let me know (pm) and I will tell you the ones that are worthwhile lobbying with. and dont give up... you have an entitlement to live in the area - you grew up there and its not like you want to put a house on a 500meter sq garden like part of the population of Dublin does.
Good luck.... (and ignore the begruders!!)

polo1 said:

Its really important also before you do anything to talk to your local councillors - if you in sdcc please let me know (pm) and I will tell you the ones that are worthwhile lobbying with. and dont give up...

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I have seen in a few different parts of the country where some people get turned down in their reasonable developments, when other people - who happen to be "friendly" with the planners + councillors - get away with monstrosites.