Stolen CC in France

I had a spot of bother in Paris about a month ago, was travelling on business and on my way back to the airport. Bought my train ticket with my Visa credit card in the metro station and got onto the train. Some guy bumped into me, let on he had dropped his ticket and stooped down under my feet to look for it, his buddy was looking over my shoulder trying to be helpful (oldest trick in the book in retrospect). Next thing, doors about to close, the 2 lads leg it outside and back up the escalator.

Takes me about 2 minutes to realise my wallet had been pickpocketed. Didn't panic, had to wait for next stop and called home ASAP, within 40 minutes, as it was a bit hard to get a signal straightaway. Got the wife to contact my bank (Permanent TSB) and report card stolen.

So managed to get home with some spare cash, rang bank the next day and ordered a new card.

However, about 3 days later, I noticed 3 ATM withdrawals on my card totalling €650 the day the card was stolen. Knew straightaway that the feckers had got their hands on my PIN and had stolen the money. Want back into the bank to file a report and send it to the credit card section in Dublin. The bank official I spoke to said I should get the money bank if it was a genuine case.

However, I got a letter in the post today stating that I was liable for the total amount as the PIN was my responsibility to keep secure.

Now obviously I am not very happy about this and I was wondering do I have recourse to any further action?

There's no way my PIN was written down anywhere in my wallet, these French pickpockets must have had some way of seeing my PIN when I bought my train ticket. I have a blemish-free record with my bank and I would have thought they might at least meet me halfway with the loss.

Any point in complaining to the financial ombudsman?

As far as I can see, chip + pin is far from secure and only acts against the consumer when thieves get their hands on your card details.

I am not a happy camper at the moment :mad:

blis100 said:

......Got the wife to contact my bank (Permanent TSB) and report card stolen.....

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Surely you should'nt be liable since you canceled (or your wife did) your card within the 24 hours of noticing the card stolen/missing. It should be in the T&C's
K

IMO chip and pin only give the bank a reason to deny responsibility.

Yes- chip and PIN pushes a lot more liability onto the cardholder and isn't necessarily more secure in all cases than the old way of doing things. See www.chipandspin.co.uk for a skeptical look at the new approach.

Is your pin something obvious like 2580 or 0000 or 1234?

They either guessed your pin or saw you enter it when you bought your ticket.

Sorry to hear...

They obviously had some way of seeing me input my PIN when buying the train ticket - small camera with a good zoom would suffice I would think if it was set up properly (I didn't notice anyone looking over my shoulder at the time) - these people are obviously pros.

There should be much better security around key pads if you ask me - a polarized cover over your hand would suffice (making it opaque from any other angle except directly above) - the more PIN's are being used, the better the thieves will become at using technology to record them.

The last few times I've used the PIN number with my credit card I was handed a small keypad on the counter - it was completly flat and had virtually no screen around it - there is no doubt in my mind that the shop assistants saw my pin as they stood right in front of me as I typed it in.

It's not a secure system at all.

blis100 said:

Any point in complaining to the financial ombudsman?

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Absolutely. I agree totally with other posters that the main effect of chip & PIN is to offload responsibility for fraud from the banks to the cardholder. Many banks have in their terms & conditions an assumption that if the PIN is used in a fraudulent transaction, the cardholder didn't properly secure the PIN and is therefore liable. Others, however, do not.

In my view, the placing of all the onus on the cardholder is unreasonable and it is quite possible the ombudsman would find likewise. It costs nothing to take a complaint, so you have nothing to lose. (Although if he finds against you it is binding on you.)

I'm actually ok with the chip and pin system. The reality is it IS your fault if someone gets your pin. You either entered it without shielding the keypad, have it written down somewhere, or are using an easy to guess pin number.

Compare and contrast the following two extracts from the T&Cs of Bank of Ireland's credit cards and Halifax's and consider which you think is more reasonable.

1: Bank of Ireland ([broken link removed])

"The Credit Card and the related PIN may be used only by the person to whom or for whose use the Credit Card was issued. Use of the PIN, in conjunction with the Credit Card, shall be regarded as conclusive evidence that the relevant transaction was carried out by the Cardholder."

2: Halifax ([broken link removed])

"You will not be liable for any use of the Card, Card number or PIN by another person who does not have your permission to use it unless:
(a) you, or your Additional Cardholder, agreed to that person having your Card; or
(b) you, or your Additional Cardholder, have acted dishonestly or very negligently."

I have had my credit card accounts with Bank of Ireland since before chip & PIN was introduced. I have never been happy with the absolute liability BoI imposes on cardholders for breach of PIN security and after reading the OP's experience I think I'll change to a different card issuer.

Have you read all of the details on the Chip and Spin website that I posted earlier? I can't see how anybody could be happy with all of the aspects of this new system...

HotdogsFolks said:

I'm actually ok with the chip and pin system. The reality is it IS your fault if someone gets your pin. You either entered it without shielding the keypad, have it written down somewhere, or are using an easy to guess pin number.

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It has been demonstrated on BBC's Watchdog on how the system can be hacked.

Towger

One of the "cracking" successes using wireless technology and requiring careful simultaneous timing of the actual and rogue transactions was unlikely to happen in practice even if it did expose a chink in the security of the system. However I believe that there are other easier ways to exploit flaws in the system.