Speeding summons and insurance

Pinoy adventure

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492
Does a speeding fine mean automatic points these days ? Could the OP have got a fine but not penalty points ?
The registered owner gets the fine/points,however if the registered owner says he/she wasn’t driving the vehicle he/she can put down (any body’s) licence number once valid on the paperwork and return it.

It’s called point swapping and is quite common.
 

Baby boomer

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437
Pardon my pedantry, and the slight OT detour, but it's not a fine unless it's imposed by a Court. It's a Fixed Penalty Charge, aka a bribe to the State who, in return for your cash, agree not to prosecute you for the alleged offence.

The Mafia couldn't dream up a better racket.
 

RetirementPlan

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The registered owner gets the fine/points,however if the registered owner says he/she wasn’t driving the vehicle he/she can put down (any body’s) licence number once valid on the paperwork and return it.

It’s called point swapping and is quite common.
You'll need permission or agreement of the other driver, which is a fairly big ask. It can come back to bite you on the ass too - ask Chris Huhne.
 

Pinoy adventure

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492
You'll need permission or agreement of the other driver, which is a fairly big ask. It can come back to bite you on the ass too - ask Chris Huhne.
You would indeed need permission or an agreement but in some cases the person receiving the points doesn’t even know.
It can bite hard if discovered.
 

Baby boomer

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Yes, duty of disclosure arises as soon as any change occurs.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. As with any insurance policy contract, there is an absolute good faith requirement for full disclosure when entering into the contract. But once the contract comes into existence, the insurer has taken on liability for insurable events for the 12 months duration of the contract, based on their assessment of a full and fair disclosure of the facts as they existed at the time of entering into the contract - including an assessment of the risk that those facts might change over the period of insurance.

Of course, if there's a term in the contract requiring subsequent disclosure, and there often is for health issues, that's a different matter. But, absent such a term, I don't see how a disclosure requirement arises.
What I was saying above is that duty extends to any of the details that were provided when getting a quote.
Again it depends. If you want to change the basis of the contract, eg a different model vehicle, additional drivers, different category of use, etc, you must notify this or you won't be covered for the changes.

To take a possible analogy. If you insure your life, it's based on your health status at the time you take out the policy. You don't have to notify the insurance company if you subsequently suffer a serious illness, while the policy is in effect. But you do if you change the basis of what you're contracting for, eg if you declare yourself a non-smoker and subsequently take up the habit. Or, arguably, if you take up employment as, say, a bomb disposal officer.

Or, if you insure your house, and Ireland's most prolific burglar is released from Mountjoy and promptly goes on a one man crime spree all along your street, that's a very relevant consideration, but you've no duty to disclose it during the currency of the policy. Similarly, if your road floods unexpectedly for the first time in living memory, and the expert advice says it's likely to do so again, you would need to disclose that at renewal only and not during the currency of the policy.
 

Leo

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13,021
Of course, if there's a term in the contract requiring subsequent disclosure, and there often is for health issues, that's a different matter. But, absent such a term, I don't see how a disclosure requirement arises.
I only have RSA, Allianz and Aviva policies here, all call out that you must disclose changes throughout the policy term.
 

Baby boomer

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I only have RSA, Allianz and Aviva policies here, all call out that you must disclose changes throughout the policy term.

Fair enough. Depends on how "change" is defined though. This is from my Allianz renewal notice:

'Any clause of the policy which refers to a "material change" will be interpreted as referring to changes that take the risk outside that which was reasonably envisaged by both you and us when the policy sale was concluded.'

Still not 100% clear, but it's a long way short of unambiguously saying you most disclose penalty points during the currency of the policy.
 

Cervelo

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714
But does the fact that in order to pick up penalty points you must have broken one of the ROTR and therefore changed your "envisaged" risk level in the eyes of the insurance company!!
Now I don't agree with an insurance company penalizing you for one infraction of the ROTR but two or three in a short period of time definitely shows a lack of responsibility and/or adherence to the ROTR and should definitely be reflected in your risk level and premium
 

Baby boomer

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But does the fact that in order to pick up penalty points you must have broken one of the ROTR and therefore changed your "envisaged" risk level in the eyes of the insurance company!!
Now I don't agree with an insurance company penalizing you for one infraction of the ROTR but two or three in a short period of time definitely shows a lack of responsibility and/or adherence to the ROTR and should definitely be reflected in your risk level and premium
I think that anyone with a titter of wit might figure out (or "reasonably envisage") that a significant cohort of motorists will pick up points in any given period!
 

Leo

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Fair enough. Depends on how "change" is defined though. This is from my Allianz renewal notice:

'Any clause of the policy which refers to a "material change" will be interpreted as referring to changes that take the risk outside that which was reasonably envisaged by both you and us when the policy sale was concluded.'

Still not 100% clear, but it's a long way short of unambiguously saying you most disclose penalty points during the currency of the policy.

Allianz's current policy document contains:

Duty of Disclosure of Material Facts
A material fact is anything which affects this insurance.
Duty of disclosure of a material fact continues throughout the life of the Policy.
...
If You are in any doubt as to whether a fact is material or not, You should contact Us for clarification.

You must tell Us immediately about any change which could affect Your Policy.

You must tell Us if:
1. You change Your Car
...
13. You or any driver has any motor prosecution pending, been convicted of a motor offence, had a driving licence suspended or had fixed penalty points applied.

I see no wiggle room there.
 

Baby boomer

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437
Allianz's current policy document contains:



I see no wiggle room there.
I don't disagree. There's no wiggle room there because, and only because, it's specifically written into the policy document that you must tell them if you get penalty points!

My sole issue here is that absent such an explicit contractual term in the policy, there is no general duty to disclose points during the currency of the policy. (Obviously we all agree it must be disclosed at renewal.)

There is a mistaken view our there that there is some legal requirement to do so that applies to all policies. In the extreme, some people claim that to not do so equates to driving without insurance and is a criminal offence.
 

Leo

Moderator
Messages
13,021
My sole issue here is that absent such an explicit contractual term in the policy, there is no general duty to disclose points during the currency of the policy. (Obviously we all agree it must be disclosed at renewal.)
Agreed, it's just my experience that for quite a few years now, any policy that I've taken out has always contained such a clause. Note, you should never rely on the renewal notice for full terms, you must review the full policy document that's in effect at the time.
 
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