Sinn Fein : wealth risk

Purple said:

Yes, more so than ever.
We are in worrying times. Once again we will mortgage our children's future to bail out old people.
You are one in a long line of people who have proclaimed that and we have never been further from it happening. Thankfully the worst excesses of capitalism have been tempered by taxation and legislation and the ultimate State imposed artificial mechanism which controls capitalism is still in place; the free market.

Capitalism being dead means that private property ownership is dead, business ownership is dead, any sort of free market is dead and freedom and self determination are dead. Is that really something you want?
People vote their way into far left governments but they often have to shoot their way out.

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China has plenty of private property. But capital is not free, it is heavily controlled and managed, for the greater good ( at least in principle)

The Chinese used to put their economic criminals up against the wall and shoot them. They have relented a little these days, but if you are a businessman who is deemed to be putting personal gain before the well being of society, you will still face a decade or so in a prison cell.

Here the economic criminals are still lauded and sitting in their D4 mansions, laughing at you. That's just a symptom of the problem. Our democracy is a sham, the power remains with the holders of capital. But that is changing, just not sure which way it is going to go.

Allpartied said:

China has plenty of private property. But capital is not free, it is heavily controlled and managed, for the greater good ( at least in principle)

The Chinese used to put their economic criminals up against the wall and shoot them. They have relented a little these days, but if you are a businessman who is deemed to be putting personal gain before the well being of society, you will still face a decade or so in a prison cell.

Here the economic criminals are still lauded and sitting in their D4 mansions, laughing at you. That's just a symptom of the problem. Our democracy is a sham, the power remains with the holders of capital. But that is changing, just not sure which way it is going to go.

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Yeah that's China alright. You do know many millionaires and billionaires there are in China don't you????

Sunny said:

Yeah that's China alright. You do know many millionaires and billionaires there are in China don't you????

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Plenty, but they don't do anything, or spend anything, or start anything, or build anything, or buy anything, without the agreement of the Communist Party of China.

Allpartied said:

Plenty, but they don't do anything, or spend anything, or start anything, or build anything, or buy anything, without the agreement of the Communist Party of China.

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Eh???? You really don't know what you are talking about do you? So all these millionaires and billionaires don't do anything if it isn't good for the society as a whole?? I would suggest you visit China.

Sunny said:

Eh???? You really don't know what you are talking about do you? So all these millionaires and billionaires don't do anything if it isn't good for the society as a whole?? I would suggest you visit China.

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China is a controlled economy. The Communist Party will allow people to become millionaires, or even billionaires, if they think it will benefit the common good. They are on a journey to socialism and then communism. If the Party deems billionaires to be a threat to this vision, they will confiscate their wealth and, quite possibly, imprison them.
The Chinese govt owns the banks, the biggest companies and the energy industry.. What Lenin called " the commanding heights of the economy". The Chinese Communist Party is committed to this policy and it is only permitted to accumulate large amounts of wealth whilst this policy improves the overall wealth of the nation and lifts others out of poverty.
Ask your friends in China, if they can deviate from the policy of the Party?
The influence of the state is massive and all encompassing.

Allpartied said:

China is a controlled economy. The Communist Party will allow people to become millionaires, or even billionaires, if they think it will benefit the common good. They are on a journey to socialism and then communism. If the Party deems billionaires to be a threat to this vision, they will confiscate their wealth and, quite possibly, imprison them.
The Chinese govt owns the banks, the biggest companies and the energy industry.. What Lenin called " the commanding heights of the economy". The Chinese Communist Party is committed to this policy and it is only permitted to accumulate large amounts of wealth whilst this policy improves the overall wealth of the nation and lifts others out of poverty.
Ask your friends in China, if they can deviate from the policy of the Party?
The influence of the state is massive and all encompassing.

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Okay. I know where you stand.
Personally I prefer our democracy, flawed though it is, and our economic model, flawed though it is, over a one party state with no real freedom, massive economic and social inequality, concentration camps, no free press, no due process and censorship of every aspect of the lives of ordinary citizens, citizens who live in fear of the State.

Each to their own I suppose.

Allpartied said:

China is a controlled economy. The Communist Party will allow people to become millionaires, or even billionaires, if they think it will benefit the common good.

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Let me correct that for you: ...if they think it will benefit the party leaders.

Allpartied said:

They are on a journey to socialism and then communism.

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You had me there - for a minute I thought you were serious

Allpartied said:

If the Party deems billionaires to be a threat to this vision, they will confiscate their wealth and, quite possibly, imprison them.

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Just need to fix this up a little: If the Party deems billionaires to be a threat to the leadership, they will confiscate their wealth and, quite possibly, imprison them, torture them and kill them.

Allpartied said:

The Chinese govt owns the banks, the biggest companies and the energy industry.. What Lenin called " the commanding heights of the economy". The Chinese Communist Party is committed to this policy and it is only permitted to accumulate large amounts of wealth whilst this policy improves the overall wealth of the nation and lifts others out of poverty.

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Don't you mean: ...whilst this policy improves the overall wealth of the leaders and keeps others in poverty.

Allpartied said:

Ask your friends in China, if they can deviate from the policy of the Party?
The influence of the state is massive and all encompassing.

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Well, that bit is true anyway!

Purple said:

Okay. I know where you stand.
Personally I prefer our democracy, flawed though it is, and our economic model, flawed though it is, over a one party state with no real freedom, massive economic and social inequality, concentration camps, no free press, no due process and censorship of every aspect of the lives of ordinary citizens, citizens who live in fear of the State.

Each to their own I suppose.

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I too prefer pluralistic democracy. But if your yardstick is lifting people out of abject third world poverty then the Chinese have shown how to do it.
By the state taking command of the main levers of economic power and controlling the business cycle by intervening directly in the market.
If a few rich people get chucked in the hokey, well, that's a fair price to stop millions of people starving to death.

People who are starving to death, don't have much time to think about social inequality or the freedom of the press, what with them starving to death.

Do you honestly believe there's no poverty or people starving to death in China?

Allpartied said:

I too prefer pluralistic democracy. But if your yardstick is lifting people out of abject third world poverty then the Chinese have shown how to do it.
By the state taking command of the main levers of economic power and controlling the business cycle by intervening directly in the market.
If a few rich people get chucked in the hokey, well, that's a fair price to stop millions of people starving to death.

People who are starving to death, don't have much time to think about social inequality or the freedom of the press, what with them starving to death.

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Folding Southeast Asia into the West's supply chain has lifted billions out of abject poverty. Capitalism did more for equality in 30 years from the 1980's than socialism or communism did in the previous 130. That's the great irony when people complain about inequality in rich countries and how the rich get richer; the real problem is that the poor got richer, the real poor that is. Of course that leaves much of sub-Saharan Africa and parts of central Asia worse off than ever (I recommend https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bottom-Billion-Poorest-Countries-Failing/dp/0195374630/ref=asc_df_0195374630/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310623486223&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14738306069827313042&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007850&hvtargid=pla-465880206923&psc=1&th=1&psc=1 (The Bottom Billion) for more on that).

China got rich making and selling stuff to the West. That is what had made Chinese people better off. When it was a communist country they had famines. In order to do so it needed an educated workforce. With an educated workforce comes an impetus for less corruption, better public services and more democracy. The government viciously cracks down on those who want to be free but there is an inevitable drive towards democracy and you can't have that and real socialism.

Seagull said:

Do you honestly believe there's no poverty or people starving to death in China?

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Yea, but they are Muslims and minorities so they don't count.

fistophobia said:

What are the impending risks of a Sinn Fein controlled government?
I am seeing a lot of socialist speak in the media,
there could be a purge on stored wealth and high earnings.
What do people think are the risks to one's wealth?
Theres only so much people will take, before they consider leaving the country.
Most financial assets can be easily moved overseas.
Interested to hear people's thoughts.

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No need to leave the country, come the revolution there will be

"breaded fried oysters with gribiche dressing and devilled spider crab in sherry and cream sauce"

for all.

Seemingly that's the English for 'tiocfaidh ár lá'

fistophobia said:

What are the impending risks of a Sinn Fein controlled government?
I am seeing a lot of socialist speak in the media, a gradual shift to the left.
We could see a planned 5% tax on earners above a certain level.
Its not talked about much, but there could be a purge on stored wealth and high earnings.
What do people think are the risks to one's wealth?
Theres only so much people will take, before they consider leaving the country.
Most financial assets can be easily moved overseas.
Interested to hear people's thoughts.

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Interesting to see that they have now decreased their 5% tax increase over €140k to a 3% "solidarity tax"

arbitron said:

Interesting to see that they have now decreased their 5% tax increase over €140k to a 3% "solidarity tax"

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And yet they are totally committed to removing the only meaningful wealth tax we have.
They are just populist opportunists, a reincarnation of Fianna Fail from the 70's.

I see they want to increase the tax on cigarettes by 30c. That would surely just result in more illegal imports....oh wait

Firefly said:

I see they want to increase the tax on cigarettes by 30c. That would surely just result in more illegal imports....oh wait

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The number of people making day trips to UK airports and bringing back a few boxes of cigarettes is huge.

I know one person I play golf with that buys 400 in Dublin and 600 in either Birmingham or Manchester using just a laptop bag and sails through customs.

Saves about €500. He's semi retired, so the time value factor doesn't come into it.