Given the great response from the Irish people to the plight of the Ukrainian refugees is it time to start treating our other refugees and asylum seekers as human beings and move them out of the appalling conditions that they are forced to live in for up to a decade?
Refugees and Asylum Seekers
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I hate to say it but many Ukrainian refugees will be living in some pretty basic accomadation when they arrive here. If the numbers forecast are correct, we'll run out of houses and volunteers to accomodate them quite quickly and we will end up with far more "centres". Where I live, 50 of them (+ 2 dogs and a cat) are staying in a small hotel. That's fine for a while, even maybe a few months but given the scale of the destruction, it could be a couple of years (even if the war stopped this week) before they would have somewhere to go home to.
At least they are safe but it's going to be a difficult few years ahead
At least they are safe but it's going to be a difficult few years ahead
Any asylum seeker in the system for circa 10 years is there because their claim has failed on numerous occasions and very few deportations actually take place. It's a one way system
True but children who have grown up in Ireland and know no other country should not be deported to a place that is completely alien to them.
Don't worry, it'll be grand now that we have an
Baby boomer
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Is that really the case? If their parents have been here on a bogus claim, failed at first instance, failed on appeal, failed on judicial review, served with deportation order, ignored deportation order, gone to ground, are eventually found and now facing deportation, who's fault is that? Not Ireland's or the Irish taxpayer, except to the extent that it could be argued we have taken an unduly indulgent approach to implementing our own laws. Should we be penalised for our generosity?
People who haven't "gone to ground" and are just delayed going through the system have children who know only this country. They are half way through the education system. Do you think that it's okay to deport them to a country that they know nothing about from the only home they've ever known?
Our history when it comes to refugees is one of the most shameful in Europe.
No.
Baby boomer
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See, that's one of the great myths of the asylum seeker system. You don't get 'just delayed" in the process. If you're here long enough to have children half way through the education system, you've certainly had a first instance decision, an appeal and at least one judicial review on your way to a deportation order. That's simply an abuse of process and you are gaming the system. To then argue that because you've abused and gamed the system for so long, you've "put down roots" or "your children know no other home" is just the ultimate in chutzpah! It's not our fault; it's your fault! Bad behaviour shouldn't be rewarded - otherwise you just incentivise more bad behaviour.
That's 100% down to their own parents abuse of our system.
Hardly. Not too many refugees want to come here. But lots of bogus asylum seekers want to come here. Why? Because they know that if they game the system it will take about a decade to deport them. By which time they can play the "my children know no other home" card and they tend to get to stay anyway! If they are real refugees with a valid claim to refugee status, they will generally opt to process it in a more desirable country than Ireland. Our great attraction is the indulgence our legal system grants to bogus claimants who have failed at every step of the process.
If you want absolute proof that the system gets abused, just recall the practice of "asylum seekers" arriving here in the late stages of pregnancy, having their IBC (Irish Born Child) and then claiming citizenship for the child AND permission for themselves to remain to look after the newly born Irish citizen. We were assured by the very vocal refugee lobby that this was mere coincidence and had nothing to do with Irish citizenship laws. But when we changed the law to stop citizenship being granted to such children, guess what happened? Yes, the flood of pregnant asylum seekers suddenly stopped. Funny that.
There's generosity to refugees and there's being taken for mugs. We need to understand the difference.
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It could only be considered gaming the system if 100% of appeals and judicial reviews are rejected.
Baby boomer
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...or if you know fine well that you don't have a genuine case but you tell a pack of lies to drag the process out anyway.
Then there's all the people that manage to "lose" their passports between the departure gates at Heathrow and the arrival hall in Dublin Airport! But, no, nothing to see at all there, no gaming of the system at all, at all.
So you know for sure that 100% of the people how go through the appeal and judicial review process are gaming the system?
Baby boomer
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That's ridiculous! I never said that. However, I do believe that the vast, vast majority of appeal and judicial review cases are unmeritorious - most of them fail - to the point where it's reasonable to state that the system is being gamed. And the game is simple. Delay, delay, "lose" documents, appeal, appeal, judicially review, appeal that, etc etc. It's not too hard to clock up a decade or so by which time you can play the "my kids know no other home" card when you ultimately run out of road.
We almost NEVER deport bogus and failed asylum seekers. That's the great attraction of Ireland as a destination. And now we're giving them an amnesty! Why on earth should we be rewarding people who have shown utter contempt for our laws and generosity?
In fairness, it could well be argued that it's our fault for setting up a system that's so easy to abuse. If you make it ridiculously easy to game the system AND make the rewards for successfully gaming it so huge, AND make the penalties for unsuccessfully gaming it virtually non-existent, well, you can hardly be surprised when people take advantage of it. It's a free shot.
The vast majority of AS are bogus, that is well-known.
The media has had loads of cases / articles to show this, over the last decade.
Given all the reporting of bogus AS, I often wonder why or how people continue to be sympathetic towards them?
Yes, I agree, I don't blame the bogus AS, it is our fault.
The media has had loads of cases / articles to show this, over the last decade.
Given all the reporting of bogus AS, I often wonder why or how people continue to be sympathetic towards them?
Yes, I agree, I don't blame the bogus AS, it is our fault.
Lots of things what are incorrect are "well known".
Here's the statistics from 2020. The initial overall acceptance rate was 22.7%. The acceptance on initial appeal was 30.3%.
The overall numbers are tiny.
Baby boomer
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@Leo Again you're twisting and distorting what I've said. I've qualified my statement by the words "If you're here long enough..." It is just about possible, that there are people who process their appeal expeditiously and maybe even a judicial review also and who are not gaming the system. After all, if you have a good case you will want it heard and adjudicated as soon as possible. And it's not difficult to get your case heard expeditiously if that's what you want. But if your case is weak, you have a powerful incentive to delay, obstruct, lose documents, go to ground and drag the thing out until the anchor baby who's half way through the education system and "who knows no other home" becomes the trump card.
It can be very difficult to get access to information from countries such as Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran etc. This is often the cause of delays and the granting of the right to appeal.
We are talking about a very small number of people. The only truism that justice delayed is justice denied holds here. The applicant has rights but their children also have their own rights.
I just quoted wht you said. You've taken other threads down rabbit holes trying to shift the goalposts on what you have said in earler posts, so perhaps try to be a little more precise in what you are what you are saying.
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