RBS bankers joked about ruining US housing market

Discussion in 'Letting Off Steam' started by TheBigShort, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    https://news.sky.com/story/royal-ba...oked-about-ruining-us-housing-market-11473390

    More banking corruption. $4.9bn in penalties.
    The language of the bankers was eerily familiar in attitude of what we heard from the Anglo Tapes.

    We are talking about gargantuan sums of money being traded by, as one trader put it ,"every type of scumbag".

    The penalties alone are huge but probably pale into near insignificance relative to damage they have done to economies around the world and the subsequent political upheaval being witnessed.

    RBS, Anglo Irish, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Deutsche, JP Morgan...et al.

    Surely the banking system must now be considered the biggest mafia empire ever?
    While the public, politicians and media squabble over welfare payments, €5 pension increases, the cost of childcare, budget deficits, etc...the criminal empire that is the global banking system continues unabated.

    Its not even so much that they have committed mass financial fraud, more that they can continue on basically under the same rules that allowed them to commit fraud in the first place.

    If I put 12 pts on my drivers license, I lose it.
    Mass financial fraud? Just pay the fine (if caught) and carry on.
     
  2. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

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    I agree with the gist of your post (less the hyperbole).
    We need to have a Financial Regulator and a Department of Finance who, working with the Department of Justice, can define and then frame legislation to punish financial crimes. Oh, wait, we have them. They must also be held accountable, right?
     
  3. TheBigShort

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    Absolutely. But as the investigators in the Drumm/Anglo case referred, there was no actual crime scene. The investigators had to find a crime, thats why the Anglo Tapes were so damning.

    To all intents and purposes, the paper trail was all legal and above board audited in accordance with best practice.

    While the language I use could be construed as hyperbole, considering the gargantuan levels of money involved and the almost unaccountable, untouchable protection for top bankers, I can only conclude that the global banking system has morphed into a mafia.

    Here is what the UK Financial Control Authority said when RBS were accused of pushing small firms into bankruptcy in order to acquiesce the assets of those firms for their clients (if this is not mafia type behaviour, what is?)

    https://news.sky.com/story/fca-defends-decision-not-to-act-over-rbs-small-firms-scandal-11455212
     
  4. Purple

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    Is that in itself not a damning indictment of the same people and bodies I mentioned above?
     
  5. TheBigShort

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    Yes, but my underlying point is that the banking cartel and its associated industries in accounting, auditing and law have, in my view, ring-fenced the financial system to allow them to engage in corrupt practices.

    I cant emphasis enough what the investigators said in relation to Drumm/Anglo - "there was no crime scene".
    This echos the UK Financial Control Authority with regard to RBS - nothing to do with us.
    If it weren't for the diligence of the prosecuting investigators in the Drumm case, the collapse of Anglo would have been put down to bad business decisions, all part of the free-market capitalist roundabout - you take risks, some you win, some you lose etc.

    And that is the underlying point - alot of this corruption is actually legal on the paper trail. Its only when a whistleblower calls it out or emails or recordings not intended to be part of the audit are found that the real intent of a lot of financial transactions are finally exposed.

    My guess is what has been exposed to date is merely a drop in the ocean.
     
  6. Firefly

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    Bad business decisions are not the preserve of the, so-called, free-market capitalist roundabout. Look at any socialist/communist states for examples of where economies in their entirety have been destroyed.

    And anyway, didn't you say you were a capitalist yourself? ;)
     
  7. Sunny

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    Nobody was convicted because of the 'Anglo Tapes'. The tapes weren't even illegal. They were used to show the culture that existed in the bank at that time. Drumm was convicted of conspiracy to defraud and false accounting. The Anglo Tapes did not incriminate anyone is this regard.

    Nobody can defend banks behaviour or ethics or leadership over the past 20 years. Anywhere. The situation with RBS and it's so called restructuring group was absolutely disgusting and I would quiet happily see people jailed for it. I would have jailed the head of Barclays last year for trying to identify a whistle blower. I would have jailed people who knowingly engaged in false accounting, fake pricing, dodgy lending. The list could go on and on. But the problem isn't just banking. The problem is white collar crime in general. An employee defrauds his company of money, good chance he is going to Jail. A director decides to under declare VAT and make false returns, they remain as members of the Dail. This is seen across the world. For some reason, there is very appetite to deal with white collar fine through custodial sentences.
     
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  8. Firefly

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    I agree with all of this.
     
  9. TheBigShort

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    I wasn't attacking capitalism. I was outlining how the banks use the free-market system to pursue their corrupt practices.
     
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  10. TheBigShort

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    Absolutely.
    From my understanding the actual paper trail and transactions were not illegal either. It was the intent behind these transactions that ultimately secured a conviction. This required witness statements, phone calls, emails etc to prove that the purpose of the transactions were to defraud.

    As another poster pointed out elsewhere, had Anglo survived, would there have been an investigation at all?

    True. But the extent of the fraud, the gargantuan sums of money involved at the global banking level pales VAT fraud into near insignificance.
    Im not condoning it or excusing it, but if we can assume a primary driver in financial fraud is to benefit financially then State resources should be directed primarily at who has control of vast sums of money - these guys make a packet, but still cant help themselves for a bigger bonus.
     
  11. Purple

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    I could never understand how some of the way the banks were being run didn't constitute reckless trading.
     
  12. TheBigShort

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  13. Firefly

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    Thanks for clarifying. I was unsure given the reference to it being a "roundabout"
     
  14. Firefly

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    I agree. But given the resources available to those suspected of white collar crime (their wealth can buy the best legal and taxation skills) it's not going to be easy. The Revenue Large Cases division seem to be pretty good though
     
  15. TheBigShort

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    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0919/994677-danske-bank-ceo/

    More gargantuan €200bn banking fraud being reported today concerning sums of money that would equate to the national debt of small wealthy countries.

    The fraud occurred during 2007 to 2015 which covers the period when the global banking system was frozen and taxpayer bailouts were required.

    It occurred in a country, Estonia, whose GDP is valued at around €25bn.
    Danske, the bank concerned has one branch in Estonia.

    Separately, Dutch bank ING admitted criminals had been able to launder (undisclosed sum) money through its accounts, settling the case for €775m.

    The scale of banking and financial fraud being exposed and uncovered since 2007/8 is beyond levels of historic proportions by a long, long way already.
    Why do I think its just the tip of the iceberg?
     
  16. Seagull

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    There's a significant difference between money laundering and banking fraud.
     
  17. TheBigShort

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    Sure is, perhaps 'fraud' was the wrong word. Criminal negligence of a massive scale probably more apt.
    Ultimately, a global banking system that engages in, and facilities, widespread financial criminality and malpractice is surely not fit for purpose?
     
  18. Purple

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    I give up; why?
     
  19. TheBigShort

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    Just a hunch.