Ratio of administrators to consultants in the HSE is 6.2 to 1

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

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A very interesting article by Dr Ruairi Hanley on Hibernia Forum challenging the need to spend more money on the health services and challenging the demonisation of private medicine.

Public vs Private – The Great Health Service Hypocrisy

"To put this in context, in 2013 the Irish Hospital Consultants Association pointed out that the ratio of managers and administrators to Consultants in Britain’s NHS is 3.1, a level regarded as excessive.

Here in Ireland the equivalent ratio stood at 6.2 and no-one batted an eyelid."

I wonder if that could be true? Is it a classification issue?


"Meanwhile, back on planet HSE, our public hospitals continue to employ hundreds of “Porters” across Ireland. These are a group of largely male, heavily unionised workers whose main skill seems to be an ability to push trolleys from one part of a building to another at a pace to be determined by SIPTU agreements. No-one dares question why so many of these people exist or why other staff members could not carry out this work."
 
Hmm I don't know if it is true or where the figures come from but I don't think that taking clinical staff off duties to bring patients to x rays Mris etc is a great use of staff.if not clinical staff then who does he suggest.
Odd suggestion.
 
I'd love to see one of the large hospitals adopt a Lean program, unencumbered by demarcation or other restrictive work practices which are the lifeblood of Unions. They would need a JCB to get rid of all the unnecessary staff.
 
I'm not sure what point Dr Ruairi Hanley was trying to make, it's not like hospital consultants are the only people delivering health-care in the HSEs.

Just looking at raw numbers across the HSEs, not hospitals specifically, the employee census of 15/12/2016 reports 2,862 Whole Time Equivalent, WTE, consultants. Because of job-sharing, part-time-working, public/private work, 1WTE could mean that, for example, 2 employees share a 40-hour/week job working 20 hours per week each. In reality they probably work 3 days one week, 2 days the next, turn and turn about.

The HSEs report that a head-count (number of live employees on the payroll) of 3,203 consultant-grade employees delivered 2,862 consultant WTEs at 15/12/2016.

On the same date, a head-count of 17,398 administrative employees delivered 16,164 admin WTEs.

Based on these numbers, the head-count ratio is 5.43 admins / consultant and the WTE ratio is 5.64, still higher than the ratio he quotes for the NHS, but smaller than his 6.2 number.

None of the admin numbers above include the porters (headcount 1,641, WTEs 1,511) that Dr Ruairi Hanley seems to have such a problem with, nor do they include maintenance, technical services staff, ambulance control personnel, ambulance trainers, ambulance officers or various other non-clinical grades who are needed to keep the HSEs' wheels turning.

Does anybody want more numbers? Growth in employee numbers over the last 4 years? Absenteeism by job category? The number of Section 38 employees who don't work for the HSEs directly, but are classed as public servants? The differences between Section 38 vs Section 39 employees?
 
The point he is making is that there are more relatively speaking, twice as many administrators in Ireland as there are in the UK.
That the HSE is inefficient in its use of money. Throwing more money at an inefficient system won't improve outcomes.

In general, we would prefer to see more medical staff instead of administrators. I would have thought that the appropriate comparisons would have been Total administrators to total medical staff or Senior Management to Medical Consultants.

I suppose one would have to go back to the original IHCA report to see if their comparison was fair.

Brendan
 
but who would drive it?
I just hope the don'n get any of the people who go out election after election voting to keep the same crowd in power. People who blame Unions are the problem.We don't elect Unions but we do elect people to run the country.Blaming Unions allow the people we elected get a free run its keeps the spotlight off them. A JCB driver with the wool pulled down over there eyes is someone hopefully i never have to depend on one for my life.
 
Brendan .
You posted twice as many admin in Ire as in Uk ?, I don,t see that on the postings ?
It seems unlikely ? but if so = whew!
 
Total Medical/Dental headcount 10,516, a ratio of 1.71 admins/medic or Medical/Dental WTEs 9,336, a ratio of 1.73 admins/medic.

The HSEs including section 38 sub-contractors has a headcount of 121,710 or 107,085 WTEs.
 
jjm2016 said:
but who would drive it?
I just hope the don'n get any of the people who go out election after election voting to keep the same crowd in power. People who blame Unions are the problem.We don't elect Unions but we do elect people to run the country.Blaming Unions allow the people we elected get a free run its keeps the spotlight off them. A JCB driver with the wool pulled down over there eyes is someone hopefully i never have to depend on one for my life.
Click to expand...
So if Simon Harris says enough is enough and finally tries to implement radical change and the Unions call a strike (which they will) which impacts health care delivery, cancelled operations etc, then the people will understand and not hammer FG in the next election or see Harris fail to get elected himself? I think not
 
jjm2016 said:
but who would drive it?
I just hope the don'n get any of the people who go out election after election voting to keep the same crowd in power. People who blame Unions are the problem.We don't elect Unions but we do elect people to run the country.Blaming Unions allow the people we elected get a free run its keeps the spotlight off them.
Click to expand...
That's right, the people who actually run the system on a daily basis, who allocate resources, who set up, implement and run the health service are not responsible for the shortcomings in the health service and the Unions whose only function is to get as much money for as little work for their members and set standards as low as possible, tasks they are brilliant at, are also not to blame. :confused: o_O
I'd love to have you on the jury if I was in court! :rolleyes:
 
Delboy said:
So if Simon Harris says enough is enough and finally tries to implement radical change and the Unions call a strike (which they will) which impacts health care delivery, cancelled operations etc, then the people will understand and not hammer FG in the next election or see Harris fail to get elected himself? I think not
Click to expand...
The function on Health Service Unions is to ensure that the interests of their members is the driving force in how the public health service is organised and run. The function of the government it to ensure that the public health service is run for the benefit of the public. In that war the Unions are Germany and the government is Poland.
 
What makes for horrifying reading are the absenteeism numbers Jan-Oct 2016 (the latest I can find) and the preceding years. All the numbers seem "stuck" with the heavily unionised areas consistently missing the targets of 3.5% absenteeism and 100% certification. This screams abuse of sick days to me, with Liam Doran's gang close to the front a lot of the time.

How can Harris or anyone else keep throwing people and money in here knowing that a lot of it just vanishes into absenteeism? The problem with nursing as a staff category is that they will be back-filled by agency nurses at astronomical costs.

The numbers mean that on average 2,013 nursing staff were on sick leave at any one time and that 12.5% of absences, 1 in 8, was uncertified. Truly staggering.

Why is it that medical staff appear to be less prone to absences from work? Based on 2016 figures in the table (from the HSE BTW) non-medical staff impose 3 to 5 times the absenteeism rate on the organisation compared to medics. Why?

[broken link removed]
 
Before the came to power FG promised the people the would sort out the Health service .I don't know where you were in 2008 I was in Ireland the Germans stood up for there People and made sure they got there Pension funds back the government had no choice make no mistake about it the people in germany would march and there government fear them .
 
Up to his appointment as DG HSEs, Tony O'Brien was the "Trolley Man" tasked with getting patients off trollies and reducing the queues in clogged up A&Es. He failed totally at that job so he was the obvious choice for DG. Is that what Harris is hinting at with the root and branch examination of managerial performance in the HSEs?

The organisations and the overpaid help supposedly managing them are now a huge embarrassment to Inda & Co. Although he was their man whose appointment "behind closed doors" led to a lot of FF bluster about the lack of openness and transparency, a fair old bit of guff from the Soldiers of Destiny, is it curtains for "Trolley Tony"? Next please.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-appoints-insider-tony-obrien-as-new-director-202237.html
 
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I don't believe so. If things continue there will be no more HSE. Mary Harney set it up as a catch-fence between the politicians and the health system, but stuff is now leaking through the fence to the politicos. That cannot continue. Privatisation is next and is already happening. Trumpism (extreme Thatcherism) is alive and well in Ireland.
 
mathepac said:
What makes for horrifying reading are the absenteeism numbers Jan-Oct 2016 (the latest I can find) and the preceding years. All the numbers seem "stuck" with the heavily unionised areas consistently missing the targets of 3.5% absenteeism and 100% certification. This screams abuse of sick days to me, with Liam Doran's gang close to the front a lot of the time.

How can Harris or anyone else keep throwing people and money in here knowing that a lot of it just vanishes into absenteeism? The problem with nursing as a staff category is that they will be back-filled by agency nurses at astronomical costs.

The numbers mean that on average 2,013 nursing staff were on sick leave at any one time and that 12.5% of absences, 1 in 8, was uncertified. Truly staggering.

Why is it that medical staff appear to be less prone to absences from work? Based on 2016 figures in the table (from the HSE BTW) non-medical staff impose 3 to 5 times the absenteeism rate on the organisation compared to medics. Why?

[broken link removed]
Click to expand...

It's not their money so they don't care. Running over on budget makes absolutely no difference to anyone's salary or future prospects.

They hate their jobs. The levels of bureaucracy in the HSE is only staggered, with lots of unqualified, incompetent managers in place. Many of whom care more about box ticking and appearing to run a tight ship when all they do is stop staff from doing their jobs. Primetime can run a weekly show on the incompetence of the HSE.


Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
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