Go to honestjohn.co.uk for a calculator and their true mpg.
They picked an ugly looking photo for the leaf too....
It sounds like you bought diesel cars when your city driving would have been better suited to a petrol or hybrid fuelling system or maybe even a gas conversion (€0.76 a litre anyone?)From my perspective having passed 3 diesel cars through this household and now driving one, I will be going back to petrol of which we had 6 cars. Apart from the economy diesels are an expensive nightmare, but not for me as I service mine on the button. The issue is the complicated filtration for particulates, it will clog up, it will need replacing and if you get change out of 800 euro and don't get stranded when it goes then you are one of the lucky ones. Our 2nd diesel had an expensive EGR problem and promptly was traded in for petrol.
If you have doubts on diesel v petrol pop into the Esso garage on the quays in Dublin, at the counter you will see tens of 1 ltr bottles of Dipithane that diesel drivers are buying with each fill up at 10 euro a pop to add in to clean their dpf. Do the maths with that in mind and sense will prevail.
@tomwa it sounds to me as if you have a vested interest in EVs, but I have yet to see you declare it. Do you sell them or otherwise profit from their sale or use?
I have no doubt I could drive an EV from Dublin to Moscow, but I'd only need the Irish EV infrastructure to get started; the rest of the journey is serviced by the charging infrastructure outside Ireland, like your trips to Amsterdam and London.
The reality is that the extra-urban EV network in Ireland is patchy at best and non-existent at worst. Telling me journey costs that are based on free electricity is not an honest comparison. To do a fair & honest cost analysis, compare an EV with a diesel, petrol or gas-powered vehicle that also has free fuel for another 6 or 7 months.
Why the disparity in claimed battery capacity of 130 kms and the recommended trip distance of 100 kms?
My interests are those of a consumer looking for clarity in a welter of potentially misleading "advertation".
Wrong. Your phone battery is not equivalent to automotive grade cells with a proper BMS.What kills the batteries is heat.
1. there is an industry standard 160,000km/8 year EU warranty on the battery that guarantees free replacement if the battery drop below 70% capacity.
2. even outside of warranty the original battery has a resale value (primarily for grid storage applications) more than half the cost of the new battery. So, list price is €7k but nobody ever had to pay that.
3. with more than 40 thousand Leafs sold in the EU, and many on the road since 2010, there have been only three battery replacements, all covered under warranty. That's 0.01%.
Leo said: ↑
If you want the fast charger installed at home, it costs €900 + installation. But fast charging will speed up the decline in battery capacity.
Nope again...You're mixing up rapid and fast charging. Even eCars gets mixed up... but here's the proper terminology:
Rapid charging is 400V 100A, the charger costs €30,000 and that's what's installed by the ESB along the major routes.
Fast charging is 230V 30A, The charger costs €400-500 (or you get the 16A version for free installed for free from ESB with any new car). Installation is that same as an outdoor socket, any electrician can do it and it costs less than €200.
There's not a lot between them to be fair! It was the mobile industry who have developed and advanced Li-Ion technology since the 70s, Tesla were the first to introduce them to EVs as recently as 2008. The dominant market for Li-Ion cells remains the mobile industry. The deterioration in their lifespan is down to chemistry...heat plays a role in dissipation, but chemical changes over time will ultimately lower capacity. The ACS have found 5-20 year lifespans to be reasonable. It has been reported that Nissan think they'll last 10!
Can you provide a link to that? The warranty advertised by Nissan limits their coverage to battery capacity dropping to under 75% within 5 years or 100,000km, whichever comes first.
In the US, Nissan only pay $1000. Can you provide a link to anyone who is buying/selling used EV batteries for 50% of the list price?? Power storage applications generally use deep cycle batteries.
You sure you don't have more of a vested interest, or where are you getting that info?
I'm using the terminology that Nissan use in their own marketing material. The free ESB charger is rated at 16A, Nissan's 32A Home Fast Charger option is another €900 plus installation, and they recommend only using a Nissan approved installer. Using that charger halves the home charging time from 8 to 4 hours. The free ESB scheme only applies to the first 2000 points installed across the country.
The warranty terms you reference are the new terms for the US I believe, where climate related battery degradation is more of a problem. Can't find any mention of the battery warranty at all on any of the Irish Nissan sites. The documentation that came with both my Leaf and i3 state 8-year / 160,000km battery warranties with 3 year / 100,000km warranty on the rest of the car.
I asked Windsor Belgard and was told that a €3k credit applied.
EVs of some form are the future, but I think until the range issue is sorted, and the need to stop and wait 30 minutes every 100km or so is eliminated, they'll be limited to a niche, second car market.
I think we can both agree that they currently suit more people than the 1% of new car buyers currently purchasing them.
- How many people honestly travel more than 100km on a daily basis? People forget that with a charger at home they start every day with a full battery.
- How many could tolerate stopping for a 15-20 minute rapid charge for the occasional trip they make beyond the range of the car?
- Are people aware that battery prices have dropped so rapidly that with the grants it can be cheaper to purchase an EV than a Focus or Golf?
Absolutely, they really would suit a lot of typical commutes. However, many people living in towns or doing these commutes don't have off-street parking where they can securely fit a convenient home charging point. I passed by the public charging point nearest me on my way home last night, there were non-EVs parked in those spaces, the same cars were there this morning. To be effective, the parking around these points would need to be restricted to EVs while charging.
A lot of the resistance is down to having the option to do those occasional longer journeys without having to plan ahead for stops, and wait around for chargers. Remember the fuss a few years back when it was suggested we didn't need on-motorway services because we had more than enough options within minutes of many junctions? People just didn't want to deviate from their journeys.
People in the Focus/ Golf market are generally looking for something more than most current EVs offer. Comparing like with like, the Leaf base prices range from €21,450-26,390, similar sized Micra is priced €15,095-€16,095. Those Leaf prices incorporates the SEAI €5k grant, and there's no guarantee that will last, it keeps being extended year to year.If the government manage to meet their 2020 targets, that scheme, and the motor tax rates are likely to be altered.
Fully agree Leo. It would be great to see some real-world total cost-of-ownership comparisons of EVs vs fossil-fuelled vehicles that exclude the gimmickry of short-term grants and "free or discounted until we decide different" small print.
I am deeply suspicious of these free lunches as inevitably a bill of some kind follows consumption.
If the real cost of an EV is twice that of a similarly-sized and specced diesel, petrol or gas powered vehicle, then depreciation is going to a tough pill to swallow.
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