Offered a Civil Service EO job; but not sure whether to accept?

G

grazia

Guest
Hi all, I am hoping that some of you are current civil servants and will be able to give me some guidance.

My situation:

Friday 4.55pm received phonecall offering me an EO job (caught unawares as I applied for the job in 2005!). The location is 20 mins from my house - my current job is 70 mins from my house. The other major point is that the salary is 8-10K less than what I currently earn. My current job is tolerable but I do have itchy feet and I would like to move to somewhere that may have better long term prospects.

As I see it these are the pro's and con's - however I would really appreciate it if someone with firsthand experience can confirm/comment on the reality of what I think are the pro's and con's.

Pro's with EO position:
Opportunity for training
Promotional possibilities within a 2 yr time frame
30 days holidays (think this might be a myth?)
Flexi time
Career breaks, after 2 yrs service
Progressive organisation (or maybe this is dependent on dept?)
35 hr working week
Reduced commuting

Con's with EO position:
Reduction in salary (it's not all about the money but it can't be ignored)
No performance related pay rewards
A lot of EO's chasing very few promotional opportunities
Crony-ism (sp) and politics in the workplace
No idea of the specifics of the job and how I might enjoy it*
Required to start on the lowest point of the scale (30,628 from pseu.ie)

Also if you would like to suggest further pro's/con's I would love to hear them. The fact that the organisation takes 2 yrs for it's recruiting is another factor that makes me slightly wary about joining up...

thanks in advance for all replies!


*online sources (publicjobs.ie) are suitably vague about what an EO does, I will ring the appointments section on Monday to request a full spec to see if that helps but it is my impression that the job can/will differ drastically depending on dept.
 
Re: Offered an EO job but not sure whether to accept?

Annual leave starts at 21 days for an EO i think - it increases after 5 years though by a good few days i think (maybe to 26-ish) You would be very very very lucky to be promoted in a 2 year timeframes. Career breaks are up to the discretion of your department in most cases, although they usually let you go.

also meant to say, a lot depends on which dept you are in tbh - the workload and opportunites vary *dramatically*
 
I am currently working as an AO in the Civil Service and I agree with the last poster, every EO position in the Civil Service is not the same it depends on the department. And all the pros that you have listed are correct (except for annual leave its only 30 days after a number of years service).

A couple of things. It is not as easy to get promoted as it used to be in the context of Decentralisation especially if you want to stay in Dublin. The second thing is that it is very easy to get institutionalised, you value the benefits of the job over job satisfaction and end up a little bit like a robot just doing your job automatically with no real satisfaction and to tell you the truth it can feel like your trapped a lot of the time! Especially if you have financial commitments such as mortgages!!!!!!!!

Anyway, sorry for the negative note! Its not all negative as you may be lucky and get a really good job with a great boss and be constantly challenged and as a result love coming into work every morning! The first assigment I had when I joined 6 years ago was like that and it was fantastic!

I suppose really its like anything its a risk and you just have to decide whether or not you are willing to take the risk!

Best of luck with the decision and let us know what you decide!

B
 
I'm currently an EO in the Department of Justice. I'd agree with previous posters, the job can vary wildly between departments. For example in my department EO's do not supervise or delegate to other staff whereas in some other departments EO's may have management roles. The basic annual leave is 21 days. The advantage over the private sector would be flexi-time which in my case enables me to work up a day and a half off every four week period. There is also a privilege day which is taken once as Easter and also at Christmas. Personally i think it's a very secure job with reliable increments every year (based on attendance, sick leave etc). Also i'd jump at a job that had a commute time of only 20 minutes!
 
I would advise you making the offerer aware of your current salary and having evidence of that, P60's etc. You should make clear that you are interested in the position and that you would be prepared to start on the next point commensurate with your salary scale. I imagine you were appointed through the Civil Service Public Appointments Commission - based in Abbey St. You should contact them and ask to which Dept you will be assigned. They are very professional and very helpful. You should initiate discussion on the amount of annual leave if what you have currently is greater than what is being offered. You need to do these things as a priority as there is usually a time limit of one week with the offers. Promotion is competence based - if you can demonstrate the ability you will get the job. If you want to get ahead you will find a way to do so and you will find the CS supportive.
 
Orga said:
You should make clear that you are interested in the position and that you would be prepared to start on the next point commensurate with your salary scale.
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Haven't the Dept Finance ruled out starting on anything other than the bottom of the scale for new joiners to the civil service, other than for specific specialist positions where this has been agreed in advance.
 
While there's no harm in trying what Orga suggested, I would imagine there is zero chance of any EO starting on anything other than the first point of the scale. And there is no chance of getting anymore holidays than the 21 you're entitled to. If you don't take it, they just offer it to the next name on the list.

I did the same about 2 and a half years ago, took a big drop in take home pay (although not that big in terms of actual stated salary) when i first joined as an EO and am now on a couple of panels for promotion to HEO/AO. As others have said what you'll be doing depends on what department and what section within a department you're assigned to. It can be a lottery, but it can work out brilliantly for you.
 
HI Grazia,

firstly, congratulations!

secondly, the following are facts:

EO Annual leave - 21 days, rising to 22 days after 5 years service. No higher.
EO salary - you will start at bottom of scale - end of story.
You get a flat wage - nothing else - no bonus, no shares, no health insurance - just your basic wage.
You will get a salary increase automatically every year for 10 years. After that, you won't get one for 3 years. 3 years later, you get your last increase. After that, you are on the same salary for life - unless you get promotion.
Your pension contribution will be deducted from your salary each fortnight.

In most government departments, flexi-time is on offer - you can work up a day and a half extra in a four week period to take off in the following four week period.

you can take the option of further study -eg, solicitor, accountancy - if you pass your exams FIRST TIME - your department will pay - only if you pass first time. You will have to pay for exams/course up front yourself - Department will refund you.
You will get the day of the exams off work and 5 days study leave. This is all you get.
If you do this, and become a fully qualified barrister, for example, while working as an Executive Officer - it will make NO DIFFERENCE to your career in the civil service. Neither will a degree/diploma in any discipline.

General training at a basic level is available - word, excel, (you can do advanced in these!) time mgt, stress mgt, performance mgt etc..
Specialised training is not available.

Promotion is on the basis of a half-hour 'compentency' based interview.
Internal promotion is VERY DIFFICULT to get at the moment and is likely to remain like this for a few years.

It is also difficult to move between departments at the moment. Some departments are better than others.

You can take 2 career breaks of 5 years max each time.
While on career break, you cannot work in Ireland unless you are self-employed, in which case your career break is 3 years.

Re becoming institutionalised: This will definitely happen to you if you LET it...

You are not obliged to join the union.

the above are all facts. My opinions are based on experience, but you need to take in the facts first!


HINT - find out which Departments you are being offered BEFORE you accept the job..
 
Thanks one and all for the advice.

TBH I'm veering towards not accepting it - (not purely on the advice here, so don't worry I won't hold ye accountable! ) The main reasons are the 'pot luck' element of the job and the substantial drop in salary. It seems to me to be a lot to sacrifice for a shorter commute. There may be future possibilities for me to reduce my commute that might be more appealing..

I have contacted Chapter House who were helpful, they told me the dept and a contact person in that specific dept. I will be following up with them. Thanks again.
 
I don't believe the drop in salary should be the deciding factor in accepting the job.

Part of the drop will be covered by the fact your new pension is so much better. I saw a newspaper report recently which said public sector pension has been calculated as being worth 20% extra in salary.

You'll be working around 10% less hours. Also the number of holidays in the public sector is typically higher than the annual leave number you'll see listed for a job, usually a couple "concession" days and Good Friday at least.

Your commute is much shorter, if driving your petrol savings alone could be a couple thousand a year and almost twice that in pre (41%) tax earnings.

The fact you'll have job security means you don't need to maintain an emergency pool of money for periods of unemployment.

You will get a salary increase automatically every year for 10 years. After that, you won't get one for 3 years. 3 years later, you get your last increase. After that, you are on the same salary for life - unless you get promotion.
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This is better in general than in the private sector and in any case doesn't include the partnership/benchmarking agreements or whatever applies to civil servants. Recently it's not been unusual to receive 3 pay rises a year in the public sector.
 
well, 50 minutes reduction in commuting x twice a day x 5 days a week adds up to quite an incentive for most people (it would more than adequately cover the flexi-time you would require for a day and a half off per month).
as others have said a lot can depend on the department you are assigned to. however i've worked in a few departments and within departments the job can vary widely - so a 'bad' department could well have a number of 'good' jobs at your grade and vice versa.
one thing to keep in mind is that if you take the EO job it would make it easier for you to get the AO job which is the graduate/manager entry level grade if you have the requisite qualifications. I know a number of AOs who entered at EO and succeeded at the next AO competition where they failed previously. Once you get AO you have a better chance of promotion up the line (usually quicker than HEOs).
Also the point made by Triplex about qualifications not being of any use is not 'a fact' Departments are tending to take note of these a lot more now than previously.
 
sorry Dereko1969 - you are wrong there - you do NOT get any points towards your total points for promotion. You are scored under various competencies according to your verbal performance at a half hour interview.

you do NOT receive a score for your educational qualifications.You do NOT receive points for your experience. Neither does your manager's assessment contribute to your scoring.

This is a very serious flaw with internal promotion competitions.

Also, jus to clarify for those not civil service, the only way to get to AO is via the external open competition - there are no internal AO competitions.
 
Grazia,

I have a sister who was in the same boat 7/8 years ago.
She was working externally and took a salary cut to go to the CS.
She decided to play it safe even though the celtic tiger was roaring.
(and the cat on the street can tell the economy isnt as strong as it was then)

Best move of her life. Loves the stability, Loves the flexitime.
Got promoted twice ... now earns very good money.(and it isnt going down) Has excellent pension. Is very happy with lot. Holidays building slowly but nicely. 20 minutes from work. Option possibly to transfer down the country in long term.

So before you make the decision, imagine it's 5-10 years down the line ... what will be important to you then?

Best of luck with whatever decision you make but take into account what will be important in a couple of years time.
 

i was making a broader point that people with certain qualifications would nowadays be put into positions where that experience would be of use to them in the job which would then help them to do the job better and help them gain promotion.

there are also 'economist' positions that come up which are promotions also IT positions which are promotions, i'm sure there are others too. obviously you're correct that points are not given in internal competitions but being a graduate will allow you apply for the external competitions of which there are an increasing number, internal competitions only account for 1 in 3 promotions anyway.
i'm sure that the interview board will also when looking at the forms pay attention to the qualifications and those qualifications can be used as examples in the competency based interview. it's important to point out all the issues in relation to this.
 
I think Newton said that the most expensive thing is 'Time' as you cant buy a second of it.
If i was you Id jump for the civil service. Less hours, and possibly flexi time? And you spend less time commuting. More time to do what you want- study maybe, hobbies you like, list is endless?
Im a mere CO the last few months and the drop in money was a shock but I work part time to keep my lifestyle the same and I wont be looking for a job in the private sector any time soon.
 
Thanks everybody, your experiences and insights have been most helpful.

After getting clarification from the good people in Chapter House & the specific department, I have declined the position. These are my reasons:

Working week of 41 hours - this is 6 hours more than I currently work

Salary - must start at point 1 on scale

Annual leave - a bit lower than I'd hope for at this stage of my life

Job specifics - no clarification on exactly what the job is - I know the grade & dept but they can't give me any further details. I would not be happy if it turned out that 60% of my working day comprised of a task that I hated doing. Also I feel that my qualifications/experience are not tailored to the position - I am simply the next person on the list.

Pension - I don't agree that the pension benefits are much superior to my current setup. I'm not 20 years old (unfortunately!) so I won't have anything like 40 yrs service before retirement.

After much soul searching the main attraction for me was a reduced commute. This isn't enough of a reason to take the job. There are other ways to reduced commutes... other jobs, move house etc...

Decision made, hopefully I won't regret it! Thanks again!
 
Just read the posts above, and I have to say it's been something of an eye-opener. A couple of quote stand out:

- "If you do this, and become a fully qualified barrister, for example, while working as an Executive Officer - it will make NO DIFFERENCE to your career in the civil service. Neither will a degree/diploma in any discipline."

and

- "Job specifics - no clarification on exactly what the job is - I know the grade & dept but they can't give me any further details."

Just what kind of organisation is the civil service????
 
ang1170 said:
- "If you do this, and become a fully qualified barrister, for example, while working as an Executive Officer - it will make NO DIFFERENCE to your career in the civil service. Neither will a degree/diploma in any discipline."
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I think it is an exaggeration to say that a barrister's qualification will not make any difference. It certainly will not come with an automatic promotion, but at a minimum, it will open up doors to specialist legal positions which require this qualification, doors which would obviously be closed without the qualification.
ang1170 said:
- "Job specifics - no clarification on exactly what the job is - I know the grade & dept but they can't give me any further details."

Just what kind of organisation is the civil service????
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It is a huge organisation, that requires flexibility of staff. It does not recruit staff for specific positions, but instead, recruits staff who are flexible enough to cover a range of roles. Wouldn't it be crazy to recruit staff for specific positions, which may well change or dissapear as legislation gets updated, or the environment changes.
 

Other comparable public sector organsiations (e.g. Euro Commission, UK civil service) recruit directly to positions rather than having the Irish system of panels. It might be most costly but it perhaps represents better long term value. There is a greater chance of skills being matched to those required of a position. It also allows for greater levels of job satisfaction as a person has a greater chance of occupying a position in which they might actually be interested. I think it's reasonable that a person being taken on should have at least some indication of the work they'll be doing - the alternative approach relies on coincidence (and the outcome thereof). As we've seen from this thread, this uncertainty has (at least partly) led one good person to deciding against a career in the Civil Service and, doubtless, there are others who have come to similar conclusions over the years.

The question of redundant positions, should they occur, in these other public service organisations is dealt with by allowing staff to move between different departments (a flexibility that doesn't exist FOR THESE PURPOSES in this country). In the main, staff of similar grades in government departments don't move between departments unless on promotion or to a department that's decentralising. Even in these circumstances, the same uncertainty of eventual job exists.

People often talk about the need for the civil service to become more productive. Perhaps a move towards assigning people to jobs they may be good at would be a way to go.
 
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