Northern AG wants to forgive and forget

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Duke of Marmalade

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Remember the Good Friday Agreement? That was the shabby moral compromise that released criminals and murderers in return for "peace". It has turned out to have been just about justified on that macabre calculus as we have had a peace of sorts.

But the suggestion by the NI AG that we should now completely forgive and forget the terrible crimes committed during the "Troubles" is a total moral dereliction without any utilitarian peace dividend.

I decided to check and was not at all surprised to find that the AG is an RC - thank you Wiki for explaining all.

The NI AG is not forgiving and forgetting, he obviously believes that most of these crimes were in fact justified. That would be a fairly common belief in the RC community.
 
But is he not saying that all crimes should be left alone including ones committed by loyalists and British forces? So not sure his religion comes into it. I am also not sure I agree with him but its an interesting point to make. Maybe the North is better off going down a truth and reconciliation route rather than continuous trials. Having said that, I can see why the families of victims on all sides would be against the idea.
 

This could have been an interesting discussion until you started this jibberish.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
The NI AG is not forgiving and forgetting, he obviously believes that most of these crimes were in fact justified. That would be a fairly common belief in the RC community.
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You get his whole thought process based upon finding out his religion on Wikipedia?

However bitter a pill it is to swallow, it might just be that it is something we have to do. We know it's all too easy to fuel and grow extreme political views in bad economic times, and there is at least anecdotal evidence of a resurgance in both camps. Both did horrendous unustifiable things in the past and no matter what the origins of their agenda, none has any right to claim moral authority.

Yet both sides continue to cherry pick murders, crimes and terrorism demanding answers and accountability, but just for that one act, not the ones they were involved in.

If tensions grows and both sides have their examples of the unjust to fuel hatred and excuse retribution, what hope do we have?

It's possible for people to move on and look to what could be done for peace, the parents of the Warrington bomb victims could have festered in their grief, could have sought answers, instead the set up a charity to educate in Britain on NI and also education and promotion of peace in NI. I'm not sure I would be so understanding or forgiving.

The irony with the Warrington bombing would be the Peace rally held in Dublin where attendees were heckled, abused and spat on by Republicans and that the UDA went off an did their own "retribution" killings. So the venom came from people not even remotely involved or impacted by the bomb. The parents of those killed set up a peace charity. Makes you think.

The AG has made a simple statement and as hard as it will be for people maybe it is for the greater good? It sounds glib saying move on, especially when the wounds and blood is still in living memory, but if you genuinely want peace, if this isn't really just about inculcated hate, then why can't you forgive and forget for the greater good?

Of course given that both sides do wear their religion so proudly, while looking for the bit in the bible about not killing, they might also come across the quite strong message about forgiveness too.



 

Great post...
I am not sure how the families of victims would respond to the fact that their killers may get off scott free and I could understand their anger but I am always amazed by the families Tim Parry and Jonathan Ball.
If it was my two sons who were victims of indiscriminate murder I think the rage would destroy me so I have nothing but respect for their families.
 
Latrade said:
The AG has made a simple statement and as hard as it will be for people maybe it is for the greater good?
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I second a great post.

Also agree with the AG and have no idea or interest in his religion. No idea why so many people are so angry about what he said. But that may be easy for someone who has not been touched by the awfulness of losing a loved one.

There was an interesting guy on either the Late Late or O' Connor, about the fact that all the politicians in NI spend all their time on is debating parades etc.
 
Latrade said:
Of course given that both sides do wear their religion so proudly, while looking for the bit in the bible about not killing, they might also come across the quite strong message about forgiveness too.
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Sorry, this is a mile off. The IRA openly defied Pope John Paul II's call for peace in 1979 and in the intervening 34 years I can never remember seeing any sort of religious gesture from any key member or leader of the self-styled republican movement.

The same goes for the various shades of loyalist terrorists, who wear their identity so proudly but are utterly unconnected from all the mainstream Church denominations.
 
Bronte said:
There was an interesting guy on either the Late Late or O' Connor, about the fact that all the politicians in NI spend all their time on is debating parades etc.
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If you watch BBCNI or UTV news any night you will soon realise that this "interesting guy" was talking rubbish.
 

It wasn't a dig at religion or anything relating to my feelings on religion. However, there is or are "token" reverances to religious ceremony particuarly those ceremonies that they feel identifies their denomination. I never said it was connected to any church denomination, text or teaching, merely that those wearing that "badge" as part of their justification for hatred are perhaps far removed or deliberately ignorant of what those teachings are. Which leaves us with one conclusion and that it is little to do with religion and just plain old ingrained hatred.
 
Latrade said:
However, there is or are "token" reverances to religious ceremony particuarly those ceremonies that they feel identifies their denomination.
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You won't find much evidence of that on the "republican" side of the conflict. Sinn Féin and their ilk are devoted secularists. The same applies on the other side, the ex-leader of the PUP (the political party "associated with" the UVF) now runs an abortion clinic which has been vehemently opposed by the Churches of both traditions.

Latrade said:
Which leaves us with one conclusion and that it is little to do with religion and just plain old ingrained hatred.
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Agree 100%
 
Latrade said:
You get his whole thought process based upon finding out his religion on Wikipedia?
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When I heard that a senior law officer was making this suggestion I was frankly amazed. I said to myself this guy must be RC and sure enough...

Recall that 99% of RCs voted for the moral compromise inherent in the GFA, NCs were much less sure splitting 50/50. It was a terrible pill for them to swallow but if it brought peace worth the price, just.

The point I am making is that the moral compromise came out of a utilitarian calculus. With no such blackmail now at play I am totally mystified that anyone in such a senior position would recommend a total moral surrender. But Wiki gave me the answer. One side in the Northern conflict were always ambivalent on their approach to murder and terror.

Don't tell me it was equal on both sides. There was a sordid Loyalist backlash from the underclasses of the NC community but they never achieved any general acceptability and certainly never achieved the electoral success of their opposite numbers.
 
the_banker said:
great post...
...i am always amazed by the families tim parry and jonathan ball.
If it was my two sons who were victims of indiscriminate murder i think the rage would destroy me so i have nothing but respect for their families.
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+1
 


Considering we now have members of the British Army admitting they were members of a murder squad, I don't think any side comes out of the past 40 years with any credit. That includes the two Governments.
 
Sunny said:
Considering we now have members of the British Army admitting they were members of a murder squad, I don't think any side comes out of the past 40 years with any credit. That includes the two Governments.
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That was a bit of a shocker alright. But I am really referring to the attitudes of whole communities as opposed to the many rotten apples on all sides, as you say.
 
A few points:

The SDLP were the majority nationalist party for most of The Troubles, Sinn Fein's electoral success & move to being the majority "nationalist" party came at a time when SF were on the peace route - so this assertion that nationalists as a whole (or RC if you want to use that as a proxy) lapped up the terror is highly offensive.

Not that it particularly matters, but if you want to see the convergence of religion and politics/terror I think your eye would be drawn first towards the Orange Order, maybe then to the Rev Wille McCrea (aka the sinister minister) and then finally to the lunatic fringe of Pastor (no less) Kenny McClinton of the LVF.

As to the lack of electoral success of loyalism, bear in mind that the DUP were touting a very hard line in their own right (much more so than the SDLP on the nationlist side), so the hard line loyalists could comfortably flock to Big Ian and co, whereas hard line republicans wouldnt have had the same faith in the SDLP. Added to that, other than Billy Hutchinson & David Ervine the loyalist paramilitaries didnt seem to produce the type of thinking or candidates that attracted voters.

Arguably a lot of the terror on the loyalist side came in the form of state forces, as in the British Army, the UDR, the RUC, so you could easily give your ringing endorsement for their various antics by voting for the establishment UUP.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I dont agree with this general amnesty, or at least not unless it is in the context of a truth and reconciliation process where the offenders turn up and give a full account of what happened - face to face with the victims or their families if they (the victims/families) so wish.

Families deserve 2 things (1) Justice and (2) Closure. It seems to be very hard to get (1) or at least not without huge use of scare resourses and huge time delay (meaning victims/families have died before it comes, if ever). So, possibly, there is an argument to deliver (2) at the expense of some faint hope of (1), but its a very tough call.
 
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Betsy
Lots of truth in those comments. I suppose it is wrong to characterise any community as being particularly worse than the other. But they are different. You would never get a pillar of the Unionist establishment making such an outrageous suggestion.

I do agree on one count with the AG, let's have no more inquiries to line lawyers' pockets.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
But they are different. You would never get a pillar of the Unionist establishment making such an outrageous suggestion.
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Rubbish. Ian Paisley, Edwin Poots and the eternal bigot Peter Robinson have had their fair share of outrageous, wrong and, at times, bemusing comments and ideals.
 
bullbars said:
Rubbish. Ian Paisley, Edwin Poots and the eternal bigot Peter Robinson have had their fair share of outrageous, wrong and, at times, bemusing comments and ideals.
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They are not pillars. If it was Grizzly Adams or his sidekick calling for us to forget all those horrible crimes, that would not faze me in the least, but the chief Law Officer
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
They are not pillars. If it was Grizzly Adams or his sidekick calling for us to forget all those horrible crimes, that would not faze me in the least, but the chief Law Officer
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Yes because Grizzly Adams was as disconnected from the politics of Northern Ireland as the trio I nominated.
Two of whom are founders of the DUP and all three have had or are currently installed in prominent political positions. You are just trolling at this stage.
 
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