No Food or Drink for Christmas

[Purple]

The beef farmers are threatening that they will blockade Dublin and there will be no food or drink for Christmas.
I have some sympathy for them on a human level but they are grossly inefficient and in a dying industry. They already get 2/3 of their income in welfare payments from the citizens of Europe. What else do they want?
If the market value of your goods is below your cost of production the solution, the only solution, is to lower your cost of production.

 

[odyssey06]

I think whatever sympathy people in Dublin have for them will not last long if they keep this up.

 

[WolfeTone]

On the other hand, if its not worthwhile producing then farmers will divert into other areas or sectors, leaving alot of restaurants and industries without key produce.

Im not aware of the machinations of the pricing in this industry but it does seem odd that the most expensive item, generally, on a restaurant menu is steak, but that farmers are seeing their cut (no pun intended) diminishing.
I suspect, in broader terms, the writing is on the wall for beef industry. Not completely, but it will be greatly reduced because of carbon emissions and the advancement of deliciously tempting 100% not-beef, Burger King beef burgers, mmm...so tempting!

 

[Leo]

I suspect, in broader terms, the writing is on the wall for beef industry.

Indeed, this recent article in the IT doesn't paint a rosy picture for the industry as a whole here and elsewhere.

..but it does seem odd that the most expensive item, generally, on a restaurant menu is steak, but that farmers are seeing their cut (no pun intended) diminishing.

The meat industry reps contest the farmers' claims on that. There are suggestions that the processing industry is dominated by a few big players, but there does seem to be a lot of other options. Is it not possible to shop around for better prices and force the hands of those offering the lowest price by starving them of supply?

 

[odyssey06]

Just realised this gives me perfect excuse to raid Tesco for whiskey and wine on the way home... need to beat the blockade!
Ok and maybe a Ham too.

 

[Firefly]

We seem to be tied to consuming Irish beef in this country. If this changed it would be pretty easy for the likes of McDonalds to source their beef from somewhere else within the EU. Problem solved for the consumer?

 

[Peanuts20]

Issue here starts with the retailers who try to keep the price of beef artificially low to attract customers in to spend money on other things. If farmers were allowed to charge the true price of production with a margin, then processors did similar and retailers/Mcdonalds etc did similar, the price to the consumer would be far more expensive. Would we pay for that?

It's almost impossible for a farmer to reduce the cost of production, you can't make a cow eat grass quicker for example, and suppliers such as Vets will have a monopoly in the area.

 

[Purple]

It's almost impossible for a farmer to reduce the cost of production, you can't make a cow eat grass quicker for example, and suppliers such as Vets will have a monopoly in the area.

Of course it's possible. The problem is that many farms are too small to be viable. Those farms need to be sold or move to a different product.

 

[joe sod]

I think whatever sympathy people in Dublin have for them will not last long if they keep this up.

Yes, they did not get much sympathy, but is there a bit of hypocrisy to the vitriol directed at the farmer protesters especially by the media, a few weeks ago the extinction rebellion protest also brought the city to a standstill and for a lot longer. They were actually more menacing with people chaining themselves to the gates of government buildings. Amazingly the corporation also allowed them to camp in Merion square park for a week and this when the weather was very wet , I can just imagine the muck and dirt. The media then fawned all over these protesters

 

[odyssey06]

Yes, they did not get much sympathy, but is there a bit of hypocrisy to the vitriol directed at the farmer protesters especially by the media, a few weeks ago the extinction rebellion protest also brought the city to a standstill and for a lot longer. They were actually more menacing with people chaining themselves to the gates of government buildings. Amazingly the corporation also allowed them to camp in Merion square park for a week and this when the weather was very wet , I can just imagine the muck and dirt. The media then fawned all over these protesters

I had even less sympathy for them, but I take your point about the media. That is a general point that if it doesn't fit their narrative don't expect sympathy and\or even coverage - certainly not sympathetic coverage!

 

[Peanuts20]

Of course it's possible. The problem is that many farms are too small to be viable. Those farms need to be sold or move to a different product.

How. ?

Many small farmers are part time farmers (I grew up on one) where the farming suppliments an outside income and vice versa.

 

[Purple]

How. ?

Many small farmers are part time farmers (I grew up on one) where the farming suppliments an outside income and vice versa.

Introduce secondary processing (make cheese etc.) plant trees and move to organic production (lower heard density but low/no winter feed costs and a higher price for a premium product). Ultimately many small farms are just not economically viable. As a small beef farmer should your fellow citizen subsidise what is, in effect, your lifestyle choice? We live in a global economy so you are competing with farmers all over the world.

What Irish farmers should be doing is pointing out that their beef has a fraction of the carbon footprint of beef from Latin America and, to protect the global climate, we should be lowering our environmental standards, producing far more beef and slapping massive environmental tariffs on beef from Brazil etc. The problem is that there is such a culture of dependence and they are so used to suckling on the EU teeth that the notion that they should actually stand on their own two feet just doesn't occur to them.

 

[Peanuts20]

Introduce secondary processing (make cheese etc.) plant trees and move to organic production (lower heard density but low/no winter feed costs and a higher price for a premium product). Ultimately many small farms are just not economically viable. As a small beef farmer should your fellow citizen subsidise what is, in effect, your lifestyle choice? We live in a global economy so you are competing with farmers all over the world.

What Irish farmers should be doing is pointing out that their beef has a fraction of the carbon footprint of beef from Latin America and, to protect the global climate, we should be lowering our environmental standards, producing far more beef and slapping massive environmental tariffs on beef from Brazil etc. The problem is that there is such a culture of dependence and they are so used to suckling on the EU teeth that the notion that they should actually stand on their own two feet just doesn't occur to them.

It takes 2-3 years minimum for land to be certified organic so potentially the farmer has no income during that time. Secondly, the idea that organic farmers have no winter feed costs is bizarre, what is the bullock supposed to live on when they can't be out in the fields? Hay and silage exist on organic farms too with all the associated costs. Also, bullocks don't produce milk so the cheese arguement also makes no sense. As for high price for premium product, fine in theory but can and will consumers be able to afford it?. Farmers are subsidised for their "lifestyle choice" so townies get cheaper food. Subsidies would not be needed if farmers were allowed to charge their production costs and a margin but food would be a lot dearer.


Agree with the Brazilian arguement and farmers also have been protesting against that.

 

[odyssey06]

It takes 2-3 years minimum for land to be certified organic so potentially the farmer has no income during that time. Secondly, the idea that organic farmers have no winter feed costs is bizarre, what is the bullock supposed to live on when they can't be out in the fields? Hay and silage exist on organic farms too with all the associated costs. Also, bullocks don't produce milk so the cheese arguement also makes no sense. As for high price for premium product, fine in theory but can and will consumers be able to afford it?. Farmers are subsidised for their "lifestyle choice" so townies get cheaper food. Subsidies would not be needed if farmers were allowed to charge their production costs and a margin but food would be a lot dearer.

I'm confused about your points on this topic...

Is beef cheap in supermarkets because of subsidies or because supermarkets aren't paying the market rate?

Is it only "townies" that get cheaper food or don't farmers also get to avail of these cheap products when they are buying in supermarkets?
Or are all farmers self sufficient now?

 

[cremeegg]

Farmers are subsidised for their "lifestyle choice" so townies get cheaper food. Subsidies would not be needed if farmers were allowed to charge their production costs and a margin but food would be a lot dearer.

If inefficient farmers were not supported by tariff barriers placed on countries with a lower cost of production, they would go out of business and 'townies' would have cheaper food and more choice.

Of course farmers are allowed to charge their cost of production, its just that they cannot find anyone willing to pay that much. What they really want is not that they be allowed charge their cost of production, but the customers be forced to pay it.

With all the poverty in the world the sight of huge tractors blocking the streets in pursuit of more subsidy is nauseating.

Poverty which would be reduced if third world farmers were allowed to export their produce to the EU where 'townies' could buy it.

 

[Purple]

Agreed cremeegg; the CAP kills tens of thousands and impoverishes millions every year. It is a reprehensible abuse of power.

 

[Peanuts20]

Of course farmers are allowed to charge their cost of production, its just that they cannot find anyone willing to pay that much. What they really want is not that they be allowed charge their cost of production, but the customers be forced to pay it.

Wow, imagine if you said that about any other business, that Ryanair were not allowed charge the cost of running a flight, that Toyota were not allowed charge the price of making a car, that Guinness were not allowed charge the cost of brewing a pint.

One of the joys of Brexit is the clearer understanding of what farm subsidies and their loss to UK farmers will actually mean for UK retailers and customers. For example, UK farmers get £50 per tonne of wheat they produce from the EU. In a post Brexit world this will stop meaning either the UK govt will have to step in an pay it or farmers will have to raise their prices to bakeries etc (who will then try and pass it on to retailers and ultimately consumers) or wheat will be imported from abroad and UK farmers will go bust.

I've no argument farming could be more efficient but the logic that a wheat farmer can cut his costs by £50 per tonne (about a 33% reduction) and still produce a quality product is ludicrous. Subsidies exist to provide cheap food for the masses.

 

[Purple]

Wow, imagine if you said that about any other business, that Ryanair were not allowed charge the cost of running a flight, that Toyota were not allowed charge the price of making a car, that Guinness were not allowed charge the cost of brewing a pint.

Farmers are allowed to charge whatever they want. The problem is that their costs are higher than the market will stand.

One of the joys of Brexit is the clearer understanding of what farm subsidies and their loss to UK farmers will actually mean for UK retailers and customers. For example, UK farmers get £50 per tonne of wheat they produce from the EU. In a post Brexit world this will stop meaning either the UK govt will have to step in an pay it or farmers will have to raise their prices to bakeries etc (who will then try and pass it on to retailers and ultimately consumers) or wheat will be imported from abroad and UK farmers will go bust.

Or they'll end up with fewer, larger and more efficient farms.

I've no argument farming could be more efficient but the logic that a wheat farmer can cut his costs by £50 per tonne (about a 33% reduction) and still produce a quality product is ludicrous.

Is the cost for every farmer the same? No?
Are large farms not efficient with a lower cost of production? Yes?

Subsidies exist to provide cheap food for the masses.

No they aren't. They are there to keep small farmers on their farms. If we wanted cheap food for the masses we'd lower our trade barriers.

 

[cremeegg]

Wow, imagine if you said that about any other business, that Ryanair were not allowed charge the cost of running a flight, that Toyota were not allowed charge the price of making a car, that Guinness were not allowed charge the cost of brewing a pint.

G

I am sorry I have no idea what this means.

Kkg

One of the joys of Brexit is the clearer understanding of what farm subsidies and their loss to UK farmers will actually mean for UK retailers and customers. For example, UK farmers get £50 per tonne of wheat they produce from the EU. In a post Brexit world this will stop meaning either the UK govt will have to step in an pay it or farmers will have to raise their prices to bakeries etc (who will then try and pass it on to retailers and ultimately consumers) or wheat will be imported from abroad and UK farmers will go bust.

I've no argument farming could be more efficient but the logic that a wheat farmer can cut his costs by £50 per tonne (about a 33% reduction) and still produce a quality product is ludicrous. Subsidies exist to provide cheap food for the masses.

While neither you nor I know what will happen after Brexit here is my prediction.
The UK will import wheat from Russia and the US at prices UK farmers will be unable to compete with and many UK farmers will go out of business.