new tenants - late rent advice pls

Hi - here's a summary of the problem :

We let a brand new fully furnished apt. 2 months ago. When the tenants moved in they had brand new furniture, washing machine, fridge installed. We supplied an inventory of plates, cutlery, toaster, microwave etc. all new. There was a delay of about 2 weeks for the dishwasher to be installed and they also asked for an array of extra stuff which we supplied e.g. toilet brush (?) and lampshades among other stuff. We got a bit concerned that there was a list of requests which seemed never ending (through the agency) but we supplied them anyway and they signed each inventory form.

They signed the lease and paid a month in advance and a deposit (equiv. to a month's rent). The following month the rent was paid approx. 11 days late and after several phonecalls between the agency and the tenants and several false promises that it would be paid but then wasn't. Not sure what the problem was but it seems that they weren't happy that the place was "ready". The alarm was also installed a few weeks after they moved in.

So this was not a good start and this month being the 2nd month I was watching v. closely to see when the rent would be paid. It's now 3 days late and I rang the tenant myself yesterday to which he replied he thought the banks were closed. I told him to lodge it this morning. (Incidentally the lease asks for a standing order not a manual lodgement every month). Rang him again this morning and he started giving me vague reasons for not paying e.g. "not happy with the agency" "he knows his rights" "he demands satisfaction" but would not give me any specifics. There is absolutely nothing they're being short-changed on (absolutely everything is brand new) so these seem like vague excuses. He also complained that he "had to clean the place himself" when he moved in - my husband personally had gone up and assembled all furniture, removed all packaging and hoovered etc. so it was not dirty by any stretch - probably just needed a once over as any new place would (with hindsight probably should have got a cleaner in).

Anyway long story short I'm reluctant to go through this fiasco every month as it seems these people are intent on starting a row over nothing so that they can live rent free for as long as possible.

What advice would anyone give ? I'm leaning towards issuing an eviction notice as soon as the rent is paid (late again) this month so that we can nip this in the bud before it drags on and we end up seriously out of pocket. Needless to say it's all above board and registered etc. I believe I can give them 28 days notice ? Or does it depend on the rent not being paid at all ?

Thanks !

M

I've just checked the bank again and they've paid it today - 3 days late but I just can't go through this every month when there's nothing wrong with the place !

M

What date was the money due ?

I know a standing order scheduled for 22nd of every month only left my account today....

Take the hint and serve them notice to leave asap. Check with the agent as to how long the notice period should be. We had this problem and let it go on for 10 months, seriously messing with our finances. When they eventually left they took half our stuff with them and left so much rubbish we filled an entire skip.

Since then we've had no trouble with any other tenants but the first sign of problems would mean they'd be out. Once bitten twice shy and all that.

What date was the money due ?

I know a standing order scheduled for 22nd of every month only left my account today....

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Hi - it was due on the 25th so under ordinary circumstances I would have understood if it had gone in this morning but there's no standing order set up at all.

shesells - I'm inclined to agree though I feel v. bad about turfing people out - having said that they obviously don't feel bad about messing us around...

I think as well the lease says 25th but they didn't move in until the 29th of the first month and they seem to be in dispute about that. The apt. was ready by the 25th though so it was their choice.

Midsummer -- First drop the human element - this is a business transaction. They viewed the property and they agreed to rent it on that basis. Unless they are pigs, it would have needed some kind of a clean to be done by them, when they moved in. What do these people want - you to go around every day to wash their dishes. Fact is they have been late paying in rent to your account so they are in breach of the lease. If they don't like your agent -- tough - they are renting an apartment not an agent. Now you mention everything is new so you really don't want the place wrecked. Do you know where these people work - do they hold responsible positions ? The fact that you received rent today is a major plus, because most tenants at this time of year will be asking landlords to wait for rent. Hasten slowly - to preserve your apartment and your sanity. Try having a polite,quite,nice but stern word and then see what happens. By the way what have the agents done about any of this - bet they didn't wait for their fee ??

Midsummer -- First drop the human element - this is a business transaction. They viewed the property and they agreed to rent it on that basis. Unless they are pigs, it would have needed some kind of a clean to be done by them, when they moved in. What do these people want - you to go around every day to wash their dishes. Fact is they have been late paying in rent to your account so they are in breach of the lease. If they don't like your agent -- tough - they are renting an apartment not an agent. Now you mention everything is new so you really don't want the place wrecked. Do you know where these people work - do they hold responsible positions ? The fact that you received rent today is a major plus, because most tenants at this time of year will be asking landlords to wait for rent. Hasten slowly - to preserve your apartment and your sanity. Try having a polite,quite,nice but stern word and then see what happens. By the way what have the agents done about any of this - bet they didn't wait for their fee ??

Midsummer said:

Hi - it was due on the 25th so under ordinary circumstances I would have understood if it had gone in this morning but there's no standing order set up at all.

shesells - I'm inclined to agree though I feel v. bad about turfing people out - having said that they obviously don't feel bad about messing us around...

I think as well the lease says 25th but they didn't move in until the 29th of the first month and they seem to be in dispute about that. The apt. was ready by the 25th though so it was their choice.

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You need to turf them out asap! You won't feel bad when you have to chase them every month for rent! They are hassle and you'll only get grief so in your shoes, I'd serve them notice to leave.

"they also asked for an array of extra stuff which we supplied e.g. toilet brush (?) and lampshades among other stuff. "

Just slightly off topic but are the above items not standard in a furnished property.

I always assumed they were ...am I wrong?

mercman - I agree with you and the agent is v. amiable so not sure what their problem is. I just can't figure out their angle - either they're a bit off the planet or they're working up to a big dispute so that they can justify not paying for a few months etc. I already had stern but polite words with the tenant yesterday and this morning- one of his complaints was that this was the first time he spoke with me (which is why I have an agent) but didn't seem to explain why this was an issue.

Again though he wouldn't give me any examples of issues he had (as there are none). I am torn between thinking that at least late rent is some rent and not wanting them to wreck the place - (it does sound like they have responsible jobs - a nurse & a chef which is why I'm surprised at this behaviour too) or just getting them out and getting some reasonable people in who will just pay the rent on time every month with minimum fuss.

Armada - at the time I couldn't actually find a list of standard items for a furnished apt. (can you suggest one ?) so we put in what seemed to be standard e.g. furniture, kitchen appliances & all utensils, cutlery, mirrors, etc. forgot about the toilet brush but in my own renting experience I would have possibly splashed out on that myself... There are some things you might be expected to bring with you from place to place I would reckon. Anyway we did give them everything on the list when they asked for it (which was after they signed the lease as mercman points out they knew what they were getting). I was surprised when they didn't ask me for sheets for the beds...

I'm tempted to give them one more month but then they were warned last month too...

shesells - did you have any comeback after they took half your stuff ?

Meant to add that the agent is tending to agree with me that they might need to leave as he said he's never come across their behaviour before - nothing seems to please them so we're going to discuss it next week.

Midsummer - did you get references from their work ? If so were these checked out ? I'm a landlord, but have a look at it from a tenants viewpoint. There are some landlords who treat their tenants like dirt, which is the reason that tenants have been given rights in the first instance. Whenever I get new tenants, I sit down and lay down the rules in a very nice manner from day 1. In the past 12 years, I have had very few complaints or hassle - but just once. Make sure that the ESB has been transferred to the tenants names. This is a simple exercise to check if they are bona fide. Also if they have their own TV, do they intend to buy a license ?

Well the agency dealt with references etc. and everything seemed fine as well as that the lease agreement is very comprehensive and fair so I'm sure they are aware of all of their rights etc.. Having been a student tenant myself many moons ago I am only too aware of the necessity of tenant rights which is why I would be adamant about everything being above board and fair. I suppose that's why I'm surprised when the same respect isn't afforded the other way around ! If there was a major issue there was ample chance for him to tell me today or yesterday but there just isn't anything - just the tenant taking offence at having to pay on time.

I can only think maybe they were put out during the first month when there were people organised to visit and install the alarm/dishwasher etc. but I always made sure the agency cleared the time and date with them first as you would expect. I don't think any reasonable person would be annoyed by that in a new apartment.

Should have added that the agent arranged the transfer of gas/esb no hassle - not sure about a tv license might ask the agent to communicate this in case they don't realise.

I'd get rid of them ASAP (at least before 6 months of lease). I'd also make sure that the agent will not charge you again for another tenant or at least he should be charging a reduced fee.

When someone starts saying "they know their rights" and they're only in the apartment a couple of weeks then it's certainly not a very could sign. Evict them ASAP.

DonKing said:

I'd get rid of them ASAP (at least before 6 months of lease). I'd also make sure that the agent will not charge you again for another tenant or at least he should be charging a reduced fee.

When someone starts saying "they know their rights" and they're only in the apartment a couple of weeks then it's certainly not a very could sign. Evict them ASAP.

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Tough love but i tend to agree. With the way the law is now you are feckered if they stay for longer than 6 months and start giving you trouble.

If you have signed a fixed term lease for greater than 6 months then giving them notice before 6 months is irrelevant. Most lease agreements give a date rent is due and the manner in which it should be paid. They also state that if rent is late, termination maybe a possibility. The 2004 residential tenancies Act states that if rent is late the landlord must request it in writing and give 14 days notice for the tenant to pay. As far as I have been informed once the tenant complies with this you cannot issue a notice of termination as you cannot contract out of your landlord obligations as stated in the Act, irrespective of your lease. Also if they are repeat offenders i.e. always late with rent you have to go through this procedure every time. Basically once they have their rent paid up after been written to they are in the clear again.

Also if you are issuing a notice to terminate make sure you comply with its format as stated in the Act. If they don't leave ie overholding the property then contact the PRTB, do not kick them out yourself as the penalties for so called illegal eviction are high.

As far as I can see the Act totally favours the tenant and if they want to be a nuisance they can be, however frustrating it can be.

Most of the time you can get them to move on without going down this route but if they are really stubborn or lazy they can be hard to move on.

If you have signed a fixed term lease for greater than 6 months then giving them notice before 6 months is irrelevant. Most lease agreements give a date rent is due and the manner in which it should be paid. They also state that if rent is late, termination maybe a possibility. The 2004 residential tenancies Act states that if rent is late the landlord must request it in writing and give 14 days notice for the tenant to pay. As far as I have been informed once the tenant complies with this you cannot issue a notice of termination as you cannot contract out of your landlord obligations as stated in the Act, irrespective of your lease. Also if they are repeat offenders i.e. always late with rent you have to go through this procedure every time. Basically once they have their rent paid up after been written to they are in the clear again.

Also if you are issuing a notice to terminate make sure you comply with its format as stated in the Act. If they don't leave i.e. overholding the property then contact the PRTB, do not kick them out yourself as the penalties for so called illegal eviction are high.

As far as I can see the Act totally favours the tenant and if they want to be a nuisance they can be, however frustrating it can be.

Most of the time you can get them to move on without going down this route but if they are really stubborn or lazy they can be hard to move on.

They do sound as if they are looking for excuses not to pay. However, and not wishing to go off topic, I don't think that Mercman's opinion that:

most tenants at this time of year will be asking landlords to wait for rent.

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is a fair reflection on most tenants. Anywhere I've rented, or anyone I've shared with, has had no issue with paying their rent on time. The OP's tenants do sound like they are taking the mick, but I think they're the exception rather than the rule.

spudcounter said:

If you have signed a fixed term lease for greater than 6 months then giving them notice before 6 months is irrelevant. Most lease agreements give a date rent is due and the manner in which it should be paid. They also state that if rent is late, termination maybe a possibility. The 2004 residential tenancies Act states that if rent is late the landlord must request it in writing and give 14 days notice for the tenant to pay. As far as I have been informed once the tenant complies with this you cannot issue a notice of termination as you cannot contract out of your landlord obligations as stated in the Act, irrespective of your lease. Also if they are repeat offenders i.e. always late with rent you have to go through this procedure every time. Basically once they have their rent paid up after been written to they are in the clear again.

Also if you are issuing a notice to terminate make sure you comply with its format as stated in the Act. If they don't leave ie overholding the property then contact the PRTB, do not kick them out yourself as the penalties for so called illegal eviction are high.

As far as I can see the Act totally favours the tenant and if they want to be a nuisance they can be, however frustrating it can be.

Most of the time you can get them to move on without going down this route but if they are really stubborn or lazy they can be hard to move on.

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Semi-correct. The landlord needs to give 28 days notice if the tenants are there less than 6 months, the landlord does not need to give a 14 day letter seeking the rent if they are there less than 6 months. The lease can be terminated for no reason other than the landlord wishes it so.