Mother’s shortfall in pension

My Mum is 76 yrs she worked for Civil Service from Oct ‘67 - March ‘72. She got married in April ‘72.

She did 7 months as sub teacher (being paid by the teacher) before having 1st of 5 children. She was stay at home mum.

Then in early 90’s did the women’s back to work scheme. Worked for a year or 2. Then started full time work in 2005 until she retired at 69 yrs and 10 months in 2019.

She only gets about €215 contributory pension. I didn’t realise she is is not on full pension till lately. She said her civil service/teaching could not be counted I don’t know why & she's not sure when her employer til she retired put her on the books.

She is very disappointed that she can’t get a full pension on the contributory route. Feels it’s her right to have after being stay at home mum.
Any guidance? I know the rules changed last January but is it retrospective?

Thanks

Has she requested a lis of her contributions made / that are on record?
Can she prove all of her employment periods?
Hat would be a start.

As she was born after 1st September 1946, she might qualify for credits under the Home caring Periods Scheme.

She has her contribution list I have to get it from her to see what’s on it but she said they didn’t count her early civil service/subbing and doesn’t think she paid a stamp after pension age (she worked til 69yrs). Can’t understand how u need never work a day or have lived here and get only few euro shy of contributory pension but my msm who did her bit and stayed home falls short

desparate said:

Can’t understand how u need never work a day or have lived here and get only few euro shy of contributory pension

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What exactly do you mean by this?

she said they didn’t count her early civil service/subbing

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The civil service marriage ban was in effect so she probably got some form of refund at the time?
It might do no harm to just enquire anyhow.

She did 7 months as sub teacher (being paid by the teacher)

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Possibly some form of "local arrangement"?
Cash in hand so no PRSI was paid

desparate said:

full time work in 2005 until she retired at 69 yrs and 10 months in 2019.

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I am not sure but its possible that the period after "pension age" did not count as reckonable contributions at that time.

I know the rules changed last January but is it retrospective?

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Usually retrospection in law is only permitted in limited circumstances.



Look into the home caring credits as S Class recommends above.

BlackandBlue said:

The civil service marriage ban was in effect so she probably got some form of refund at the time?
It might do no harm to just enquire anyhow.

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To my knowledge women got a cash payout in lieu of pension entitlements. My grandmother (1950s) used it as a house deposit.

BlackandBlue said:

Possibly some form of "local arrangement"?
Cash in hand so no PRSI was paid

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Almost certainly not in the education sector.

BlackandBlue said:

I am not sure but it’s possible that the period after "pension age" did not count as reckonable contributions at that time.

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Correct.

BlackandBlue said:

Look into the home caring credits as S Class recommends above.

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This is the best option.

Dr Strangelove said:

Almost certainly not in the education sector.

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Unless the teacher was pretending they were teaching full time but getting his/her friend to go in every day and cover for them and then just pay them cash. The local teacher was all powerful back in the day, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened.

If she has no income other than the COAP, it could be beneficial if she was instead claimed as a qualified adult on you father's COAP. Does he have full COAP ?

There might be a tax disincentive however, depending on the overall income of the couple.

There would be no Paye tax credits allowed for your mother.

joe sod said:

Unless the teacher was pretending they were teaching full time but getting his/her friend to go in every day and cover for them and then just pay them cash. The local teacher was all powerful back in the day, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened.

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AIUI, back in the day there was a regular system under which national teachers wanting leave arranged their own supply teachers and diverted their pay to them, but there was nothing clandestine or off-the-books about it; it was entirely above board. The advantage of the system for the teacher was that they could give the gig to a friend.

I wouldn't be surprised if one feature of the arrangement was that the supply teacher didn't pay stamps; as they were casual and temporary employees they wouldn't expect to benefit from paying stamps.

ClubMan said:

What exactly do you mean by this?

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He probably means that he doesn't understand the logic behind the non-contributory State pension. Do you?

Marsupial said:

Do you?

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A means tested safety net for those who might otherwise be in penury in their old age?

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I will look into all your suggestions.
And yes my mum subbed in 3 primary schools and the teachers paid her. That was 1972/73

Just looked at contributions it amounts to 1641 hence the reduced pension. If they have savings of 100, 000, my dads on full contributory pension +€60 a week from a private pension. My mum has €55 a week from private pension. No other income, land or house ,(except their own home) would she get more if she was means tested than €211? So hard to work out.

desparate said:

would she get more if she was means tested than €211?

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They could apply for the increase for a qualified adult and let DSP work out the figures.

They have nothing to lose in trying.

Their joint earnings are about 32k.
They can earn up to 36k tax free, so there would be no tax disadvantage if the qualified adult payment was higher.

@desparate

Your mother would be means tested as having income of 70 euro per week from her half share of 100k savings and 55 euro weekly pension, so total 125 euro per week.

This would give an increase of 231.20 for a qualified adult.

If some money was spent and savings were reduced to 80k
she would be means tested at 30 euro per week from her half share of 80k savings. She would then be means tested at 85 euro per week.

This would give an increase of 259.40 for a qualified adult.

They have worked hard all their lives, they deserve a treat !

@S class thank you will suggest the above

I agree in the early 70’s teachers had to arrange their own maternity cover and pay them a portion of their wages. Not sure when the practice stopped but the teacher aimed to return to work as quickly as possible due to this drain on their wages. It was a dept of Ed approved system so the probably had rules about stamps for the sub as well. The department of Ed pension section should be able to tell you the rules at the time,

She also may have taken a lump sum on marriage which was her pension fund so any credits she had from 67 to 72 would not count for contributory pension now as she took that benefit in 72.

If your mum has €100K in savings why not encourage her to use this money for day to day spending so she can enjoy the rewards of saving for her retirement.

Why does she feel hard done by not having the full contributory pension? Why does she feel it is her right? Over decades of work rules change and it can be difficult to predict how decisions made in 72 impact a pension in 2025. But the rules keep changing positively removing anomalies that impacted previous generations as their impact is better understood now than in the past.

@Clamball of course things improve and change….but you can go from social welfare payment to social welfare payment and get €278 of a pension. But work & contribute to society and she gets €211! Yes I feel she is entitled to much more.