Mickey Creed Guilty of Lying to the Dáil?

mathepac

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In December, Agriculture Minister Michael Creed claimed that the "greyhound industry employs over 10,300 people".

The figures, quoted at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, were ridiculed, with one politician describing it as "more than questionable" and "such a gross over-estimate that it's almost laughable" Willie Penrose TD, Dec 2016.

This week, in response to a Dail question from Maureen O'Sullivan TD, Mickey revealed that the number of people actually employed by Bord na gCon/the Irish Greyhound Board is nowhere near 10,300 - https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-03-09a.68

"Bord na gCon has informed me that it currently directly employs 128 full-time staff and approximately 720 part-time staff," Minister Creed stated.

Minister Creed - who has been involved in greyhound racing and hare coursing (co-owning at least one greyhound with other Fine Gael TDs) - had presented the 10,300 jobs figure in an attempt to justify the government's major funding of the industry. This amounts to around a quarter of a billion euro since 2001, including a €16 million allocation for 2017.

So 10,300 or 848, a mixture of full and part-time staff, whatever that amounts to in whole-time equivalents (WTEs) in other State or semi-State bodies. It's less than 1/8th of the reported level of employment.

So should Mickey be turfed out for lying as he's been caught out in a whopper and a half or is it OK as he may not be on his own and was addressing a Committee held in the House rather than a full sitting of the Dáil?
 
Mathepac,

I believe your logic is flawed! Bord na gCon is not the industry - and not everyone who works in this industry is employed by Bord na gCon.
 
SO what's the real number? How many earn their living from this "sport" The 10,300 allegedly came from a report by Jim Power in 2009 and since then the greyhound industry has experienced a 50% fall in attendances and a 58% in sponsorship over recent years (Bord no gCon's own numbers in 2015/16). With the public and businesses rejecting dog racing and hare coursing, it is time for the government to stop squandering taxpayers' money on what is clearly a deservedly dying industry.

So I repeat, what is the real number:- 10,300 or 848 and why is aMinister with a vested interest in the continuation of this blood-sport in charge of decision-making? And why can't he as an insider, get an accurate number on the jobs?
 
There are 2,000 working in the Department of Agriculture versus 110,000 working in agriculture.
... why is a Minister with a vested interest in the continuation of this blood-sport in charge of decision-making?
I was at a race meeting in Shelbourne Park once were a greyhound caught the bunny. It was horrifying to see the poor animal lose all its teeth.:rolleyes:
 
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I haven't a clue what the numbers are. It wasn't the point of my post which was simply to point out the flaw in your logic which, as sometimes happens in these parts, seems to have been ungraciously received! :rolleyes:

I could have been more forceful in my initial post and pointed out the delicious inherent irony of you castigating the Minister for using dodgy numbers by, well................using dodgy numbers yourself.

It seems to me that The DOM gets the point of my post. Honestly, I would pay far more attention to the substantive point you are trying to make if you were to acknowledge the deficit in your original post!
 
A minister usually gets all his facts and figures from his civil servants. Any info given to a minister would have to be justifiable but its possible someone made an error.............
 
I could have been more forceful in my initial post and pointed out the delicious inherent irony of you castigating the Minister for using dodgy numbers by, well................using dodgy numbers yourself.
I could, of course, point out to you the point you miss - all the numbers I quoted came from Mickey at different times. The dodgy numbers are not mine but exclusively Mickey's or his those of his lying/inventive/lazy/uninformed officials' if you prefer.

Honestly, I would pay far more attention to the substantive point you are trying to make if you were to acknowledge the deficit in your original post!
The point of my OP was to highlight Mickey's ducking and diving and perhaps outright lies about the employment value of this blood-sport in which he and other Fine Girl party members have vested interests.
 
There are 2,000 working in the Department of Agriculture versus 110,000 working in agriculture.
SO you'd be happy with Mickey's original number that in excess of 10% of the people employed in agriculture are employed in the greyhound industry?
I was at a race meeting in Shelbourne Park once were a greyhound caught the bunny. It was horrifying to see the poor animal lose all its teeth.:rolleyes:
Bord Na gCon is responsible for coursing where healthy hares die. And of course greyhounds also die and show up in rivers, dumps and fields minus any identifying marks and the industry is resistent to having greyhounds electronically chipped.
It's still OK and humorous of course to plough tax-payers' money into this appalling but thankfully dying industry.
 
Mathepac I haven't a clue how many are employed in the greyhound industry but figures of who works for Bord gCon are of the same relevance as DOA versus agriculture and on that standard Creed doesn't seem the worst offender on Fake News.

Greyhound racing is a totally humane sport where the owners really care for the welfare of their dogs, if for no other reason than their financial interest. But I do agree maybe we should pay more attention to the electric bunny who is wholly at the mercy of the electricity supply.
 
I think you need to educate yourself about the fate of greyhounds who can't win races and hares that are trapped in the wild and killed at coursing meetings, all the responsibility of Mickey and his Minions (M&M). And of course, those who continue to support live hare coursing and greyhound racing. The two travel hand in hand, without one you wouldn't have the other. Thankfully supporters are a fast diminishing minority, those still in the thrall of this uncaring industry's propaganda, ably supported by misinformation from M&M.

There can be no excusing the suffering imposed on hares and greyhounds by this mediaeval pursuit and its followers.
 
Mathepac,

You can continue the charade of attempting to avoid acknowledging the really, pretty basic, error in your original post as long as you like.........'til the greyhounds come home if you will.

Personally, in relation to this particularly thread - and with sincere apologies to all - but I'm..............Bored 'n Gone ;):oops:
 
So you have the staff employed by Bord na gCon + the trainers, the staff who work in hospitality, those who work for the Tote, bookmakers, vets, journalists, printers who print racecards, the list of people directly or indirectly employed goes on and on
 
How many is that in WTEs? I doubt if
the staff who work in hospitality, those who work for the Tote, bookmakers, vets, journalists, printers who print racecards
are exclusive to Bord na gCon's activities.
 
In December, Agriculture Minister Michael Creed claimed that the "greyhound industry employs over 10,300 people".

The figures, quoted at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, were ridiculed, with one politician describing it as "more than questionable" and "such a gross over-estimate that it's almost laughable" Willie Penrose TD, Dec 2016.

This week, in response to a Dail question from Maureen O'Sullivan TD, Mickey revealed that the number of people actually employed by Bord na gCon/the Irish Greyhound Board is nowhere near 10,300 - https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-03-09a.68

"Bord na gCon has informed me that it currently directly employs 128 full-time staff and approximately 720 part-time staff," Minister Creed stated.

Minister Creed - who has been involved in greyhound racing and hare coursing (co-owning at least one greyhound with other Fine Gael TDs) - had presented the 10,300 jobs figure in an attempt to justify the government's major funding of the industry. This amounts to around a quarter of a billion euro since 2001, including a €16 million allocation for 2017.

So 10,300 or 848, a mixture of full and part-time staff, whatever that amounts to in whole-time equivalents (WTEs) in other State or semi-State bodies. It's less than 1/8th of the reported level of employment.

So should Mickey be turfed out for lying as he's been caught out in a whopper and a half or is it OK as he may not be on his own and was addressing a Committee held in the House rather than a full sitting of the Dáil?


thedaddyman,

You're completely wrong - the point of Mathepac's post is that only those who work in Bord na gCon work in the industry - anyone else simply does not work in the industry. That should be clear enough for everyone!:rolleyes: [My guess is that the probability that the staff numbers in Bord na gCon being precisely equal to the staff numbers in the industry is arguably only slightly lower than the probability that Mathepac will admit this!]

Seriously thedaddyman, it's beyond ridiculous that you felt compelled to write what you did. We really need to find a word for the nonsense of a poster making a patently false point and subsequently failing to acknowledge it - it's really annoying and a waste of time.

For what it's worth, my suggested term for such behaviour is a "wahaya" - it will save us all much time and grief.
 
So should Mickey be turfed out for lying as he's been caught out in a whopper and a half or is it OK as he may not be on his own and was addressing a Committee held in the House rather than a full sitting of the Dáil?

As Minister for Agriculture Mr Creed is subject to the Code of Conduct for Office Holders http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Office-Holders/Code-of-Conduct-for-Office-Holders-.pdf. This says, inter alia, that: “It is of paramount importance that office holders give accurate and truthful information to the Houses of the Oireachtas, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity.”. If you believe that Mr Creed has broken the code you can always lodge a complaint, or draw the possible provision of inaccurate information to the attention of the Ceann Comhairle.
 
SO you'd be happy with Mickey's original number that in excess of 10% of the people employed in agriculture are employed in the greyhound industry?
I missed this first time round. It is a tad ambiguous question so I will answer it in two possible interpretations. First a small correction to the Q. The greyhound industry is not a subset of agriculture, albeit it falls under MC's watch.

Q1: Do I find it credible that the numbers working for the GI are 10% of those working in Ag?

I certainly find it credible based on your OP; if it takes 800 to oversee the GI compared to 2000 to oversee Ag. But yes, it does seem high. But it is the figures in Ag that might be out of line. Wiki cites 5% of our workforce of 2.2m working in Ag which seems small for an agricultural nation. But another source cites 14% or 300K which seems a bit more credible. I suppose it depends on definitions.

Q2: Am I happy in the original meaning of that word with this state of affairs?

This Q2 itself has two possible interpretations. Am I happy as an economic indicator? Certainly if I was to plan an economy I would not have such a high percentage but our economy thankfully isn't planned and if that is what the market dictates then it makes sense.

But I suspect you are asking me am I happy with the morality of this situation. I certainly do not share your moral objections to the GI. I have never been to a coursing event and have no particular desire to do so. However I never got very uptight on this animal welfare thing (sorry Boss:oops:). Anyway I feel quite sure coursing is a very small part of the industry.

But what about double standards here mathepac? The mainstream agricultural industry systematically rears for slaughter millions of cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys etc. Ask any turkey for her views on Christmas? A successful racing greyhound will be pampered more than most humans and, natural causes permitting, will enjoy a happy retirement at stud. Even in coursing, as I understand it, if the hare escapes fair play to it. There is no escape for the above mentioned turkeyo_O
 
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[broken link removed]is the one mentioned above.
The employment figures are quoted on page 9.
The total quoted is 10,369. That includes 1,700 owners. I find it hard to believe that even a small minority of them derive the majority of their income from the industry. I think it is most likely that for 90% plus it is a hobby and they make no money from it.
They also lists the number employed at betting offices at 1400. Considering how few meetings there are I find it hard to believe that any of those employees rely on Greyhound racing for their jobs.
The vast majority of dogs raced in the UK are bred in Ireland so in that respect the figures for breeders etc should not be viewed in relation to the size of the industry in Ireland alone.

That said the whole report stinks of BS in that it looks like it totally misrepresents the facts.

I don't like the sport and I think Hare Coursing should be banned but without the industry the dogs would all just be put down.
I agree that the State should not be subsidising it at all but I am not in favour of State subsidies for any industry.
 
thedaddyman,

You're completely wrong - the point of Mathepac's post is that only those who work in Bord na gCon work in the industry - anyone else simply does not work in the industry. That should be clear enough for everyone!:rolleyes: [My guess is that the probability that the staff numbers in Bord na gCon being precisely equal to the staff numbers in the industry is arguably only slightly lower than the probability that Mathepac will admit this!]

Seriously thedaddyman, it's beyond ridiculous that you felt compelled to write what you did. We really need to find a word for the nonsense of a poster making a patently false point and subsequently failing to acknowledge it - it's really annoying and a waste of time.

For what it's worth, my suggested term for such behaviour is a "wahaya" - it will save us all much time and grief.

I'm not quite sure what I've done here that seems to have offended you so much on a Monday morning and that warrants being told that my post was "beyond ridiculous". All I attempted to do was point out a few things that the OP may have overlooked. Having said that, Bord na gCon wrote to the Dept in Finance in 2010 stating that the industry was responsible for 11000 direct and indirect jobs, Minister Creed does not seem to have made the point about indirect jobs clear so the OP may indeed have some relevance.
 
[broken link removed]is the one mentioned above.
The employment figures are quoted on page 9.
The total quoted is 10,369. That includes 1,700 owners. I find it hard to believe that even a small minority of them derive the majority of their income from the industry. I think it is most likely that for 90% plus it is a hobby and they make no money from it.
They also lists the number employed at betting offices at 1400. Considering how few meetings there are I find it hard to believe that any of those employees rely on Greyhound racing for their jobs.
The vast majority of dogs raced in the UK are bred in Ireland so in that respect the figures for breeders etc should not be viewed in relation to the size of the industry in Ireland alone.

That said the whole report stinks of BS in that it looks like it totally misrepresents the facts.

I don't like the sport and I think Hare Coursing should be banned but without the industry the dogs would all just be put down.
I agree that the State should not be subsidising it at all but I am not in favour of State subsidies for any industry.
Let's start on a point of agreement. The industry should not be subsidised. I'm afraid it is downhill from there.

The Report shows that there are over 18,000 owners so based on your own 90% rule 1,700 equivalent WTEs seems reasonable.

The Irish Betting Association cites that 8,000 are employed in betting offices so the Report is clearly scaling this down and indeed it states how it has done this. I would agree though that 1,400 seems OTT on this score.

Where I really take issue is on the relevance of the breeding export industry. This is the most worthy aspect of all.
 
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