How do you understand how independence for the 26 counties was achieved?
The War of Independence and other post 1916 shenanigans certainly did persuade Britain that they wanted shot of Ireland
What those shenanigans also persuaded the British of was that they had a duty to protect the 6 counties from the shambles which was about to become the Free State and would be a basket case
FF are the inheritors of the legacy of the War of Independence era Sinn Fein, not the current SF
The Catholics yes. The Protestants no. Ok, ok the Prods were only blow in planters or in the modern terminology immigrants.I'm pretty sure it was Ireland that wanted shot of Britain!
I think there were many in Britain and many in Ireland on both sides of that one.I'm pretty sure it was Ireland that wanted shot of Britain!
Are you still buying into the notion that everyone who served in the British Army during the First World War did it in order to gain Home Rule?!And the fact that Ireland was already a basket case under the realm of the British Empire had nothing to do with stoking revolution on this island? A country that had lost half its population in the preceding 60-70yrs, its language, its culture in terminal demise. Yet thousands would still serve in a time of Britains need in Europe before being betrayed in the denial of its own parliament as achieved under British law.
And it's a silly red herring of a point.Perhaps you are right after all, the British did want to get shot of the Irish, Catholic and Protestant, by lining them up as canon fodder as well as everything else, but that may stoke the theory of ethnic cleansing and I don't particularly want to go there again.
Correct.Anyway, the meaning of Sinn Féin has passed you by - it's "We Ourselves", and not any other false interpretation of the language. "We Ourselves" = We will govern ourselves.
But it's a hundred years later and circumstances have changed completely. If your point is that this new party which has appropriated the name is trapped in the past and is a prisoner to a tired rhetoric and has to keep up the charade that the history which emerged from war time propaganda 100 years ago is correct so that they can justify their pointless 30 year campaign of murder then yes, i agree with you.I never said the current SF were inheritors of the WoI era of SF. I simply highlighted that the current SF have the exact same mandated policy of abstentionism from Westminster as the original SF did.
No, it's correct. The members and voters left with Dev.Anyway, the idea that FF are the inheritors of the legacy of the WoI is bizarre.
So you're saying that Cumann na nGaedheal, later Fine Gael, are the inheritors. Okay, that has some merit.SF split in two, obviously, after the Treaty. Pro-Treaty (Partition) and Anti-Treaty. Why are the Pro-Treaty element that brought this 26 county state not the true inheritors?
They won in the end. Most people sided with the Partitionists at the time and they too espouse the aspiration of unification.
Yes, and the membership and voters went with him. That's the point.FF was not formed until 1925, after Dev lost a vote at the SF Ard Fheis to end boycott of the 26 county Dáil.
He left SF.
He formed a new party called FF.
Correct. The weren't fans of pointless wars and terrorism,. That's another thing that they don't have in common with the PIRA or their stooges.To abandon the practice of armed struggle
No it's not.(a central tenet of Irish Republicanism)
Yep, the Civil War was over the Collins, with the help of the British, had won. Of course Collins, having absolutely no combat experience, got himself killed in the first proper gun fight he'd ever been in., to accept Partition (the reality of it) and enter the 26 county Treaty Dáil.
No, they hadn't and still haven't. This country is a republic and if we run it properly and accept our history, our real history, not the nonsense that was trotted out in schools for generations, and the validity of both of the traditions on this island then we could have a united Ireland. That won't happen by murdering children or blowing up pensioners and all the stuff "Good Republicans" like to do.Republicans had lost, again.
You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how groundless. I do accept your point that Cumann na nGaedheal have a claim on the title too.Fianna Fáil are Partitionists. They are charlatan Irish Republicans who bear no lineage to the SF of the era.
That doesn't mean anything.With an ideology in one hand and a Partitionist mindset in practice.
They have a Party organisation in Northern Ireland but the Shinners keep a tight rein on who gets to run for election in Nationalist areas there.Evidenced by the fact that in "carrying the mantle" of Republicanism they still to this day, to the best of my knowledge anyway, are yet to contest one single election in NI.
See that's the problem with the Shinners; you're more interested in slogans and populist soundbites than actual substantive action. FG got the Anglo-Irish Agreement. FF got the Good Friday Agreement. The Shinners got nothing, other than a lot of blood on their hands.Not one single vote have they sought from, or obtained from, those people who they "carry the mantle" for. 100yrs! and waiting!
The Catholics yes. The Protestants no.
There were plenty of Catholics who were happy enough to leave things as they were. Vicky got a great reception in 1900 and most of the crowds couldn't have been proddies.The Catholics yes. The Protestants no
The thing was we were part of the UK so the will of all of the people of the UK would have been what mattered. At least that was the position of the British and the Unionist here. A legitimate position from their perspective.You seem to have the propensity to consider that Irish Protestants, or Irish Unionists, should have some sort of God given right to a veto over the rest of the people of Ireland. In fairness, you are not alone.
If there were and with such mutual understanding it should have be been a very easy thing to arrange independence for Ireland.I think there were many in Britain and many in Ireland on both sides of that one.
Never bought into that notion at all! I'd say most signed up for the promise of pension and nothing more.Are you still buying into the notion that everyone who served in the British Army during the First World War did it in order to gain Home Rule?!
Population of 8m reduced to less the 4m in the space of 60/70yrs as part of the richest and biggest Empire in the world. Yeh, you're probably right, not ethnic cleansing.And it's a silly red herring of a point.
So you're saying that Cumann na nGaedheal, later Fine Gael, are the inheritors. Okay, that has some merit.
The point is he lost vote at the SF Ard Fheis. He and his supporters left SF to form a new party. One with principles that didn't match the principles of the original SF party.Yes, and the membership and voters went with him. That's the point.
But you are proclaiming on the one hand they are the inheritors of the legacy of the WoI era Sinn Féin?? And now you are absolving them of being part of a failed rebellion that brought Dublin to its knees. Murdered unarmed Irish police officers in cold blood without warning, some 40 children were killed including a 2 yr old baby. Then they embarked on a "WoI" that drove sectarianism up north and south, and in your opinion, ethnic cleansing, and they disappeared dozens of people.The weren't fans of pointless wars and terrorism
the will of all of the people of the UK would have been what mattered
Are you seriously suggesting that Home Rule equated to the restoration of the 1081 Parliament?It was the majority will of the democratically elected members of the British parliament to restore the parliament to Ireland that had been dissolved by the British parliament in 1801.
Yes, and they were overwhelmingly against Ireland leaving the UK.The will of all the people of the UK is represented in the democratically elected members of the British parliament.
How come? "Many" is not the same as a majority. I know SF/PIRA don't know the difference but people who respect demcracy do.If there were and with such mutual understanding it should have be been a very easy thing to arrange independence for Ireland.
Okay, so what were you going on about earlier?Never bought into that notion at all! I'd say most signed up for the promise of pension and nothing more.
I agree.That said, the usurpation of the Irish parliament, achieved through democratic and peaceful means, did antagonise a lot of people.
No, the people who took up arms in 1916 were not fighting in the British Army. The people who did so later were more driven by the aftermath of the Rising.So much so, they took up arms to commence a rebellion within a couple of years.
So now there was ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.Population of 8m reduced to less the 4m in the space of 60/70yrs as part of the richest and biggest Empire in the world. Yeh, you're probably right, not ethnic cleansing.
You asked a leading question and I drew the logical conclusion from your point.I'm didnt say anything. I'm asking you "Why are the Pro-Treaty element that brought this 26 county state not the true inheritors? They won in the end. Most people sided with the Partitionists at the time and they too espouse the aspiration of unification?"
No, they did match the principles of the original SF party; Irish unity. Dev realised that the only way of achieving that was from within a strong independent "Free State". That's why he kept us in the Commonwealth after he introduced the new constitution and formed a Republic.The point is he lost vote at the SF Ard Fheis. He and his supporters left SF to form a new party. One with principles that didn't match the principles of the original SF party.
I'm not absolving anyone of anything. I'm not a fan of lionising child killers. I'm not a fan of lionising anyone. I'm not a fan of demonising people either. The narrative around Collins and Dev is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Both were great men in many ways but also deeply flawed. Both did great things and appalling things.But you are proclaiming on the one hand they are the inheritors of the legacy of the WoI era Sinn Féin?? And now you are absolving them of being part of a failed rebellion that brought Dublin to its knees. Murdered unarmed Irish police officers in cold blood without warning, some 40 children were killed including a 2 yr old baby. Then they embarked on a "WoI" that drove sectarianism up north and south, and in your opinion, ethnic cleansing, and they disappeared dozens of people.
All this pointless war and terrorism to end dividing the country and causing a civil war, and all the rest.
So which is it? Are the Partitionists the true inheritors of the pointless war and terrorism of the early 20th century, lionising child killers like Kevin Barry and Thomas Clarke?
Yes, so the British parliament, representing the people of the whole of the UK including Ireland, didn't want to get shot of Ireland as @Duke of Marmalade contended. Ireland only wanted a parliament for itself, within the UK. It had achieved that through peaceful, democratic means. Only when that was usurped on the threat of violence from Irish Unionists did the political dial begin to move into the hands of Irish Republicanism and a full independent Ireland, through force if necessary.Yes, and they were overwhelmingly against Ireland leaving the UK.
No, the people who took up arms in 1916 were not fighting in the British Army.
You made a statement that FF are the inheritors of the legacy of WoI Sinn Fein era. I just questioned the logic of that given that we know Dev left the SF party after losing the debate on the SF principle of abstentionism to Dáil Éireann. He formed a new party, on new principles separate to SF.You asked a leading question and I drew the logical conclusion from your point.
Thats the same as any other Irish Party in favour of unification. People Before Profit are also in favour of unification of Ireland. They were formed in 2005. They can claim to be the true inheritors of the WoI SF era? Same as the Green Party, Fine Gael and the current SF.they did match the principles of the original SF party; Irish unity.
Dev realised that shooting up Dublin city without any mandate was the only way to an independent Irish Republic. He then realised that implementing a parliament and government against the ruling authority was the only way. He then realised that walking out of that parliament and invoking more violence was the way. He then realised, that wasnt the way after all and decided to walk out on his original SF principles and become a Partitionist was the way forward and form a new party, on new principles. To this day, Ireland still remains divided, so I don't how much store in what Dev realised was 'the only way'.Dev realised that the only way of achieving that was from within a strong independent "Free State". That's why he kept us in the Commonwealth after he introduced the new constitution and formed a Republic.
So it must annoy you that FF, a ruling party of this State for the best part of its existence does?I'm not a fan of lionising child killers
Sinn Fein (the real one) and the IRA (the real one) never supported Home Rule. Equating the suspension of the Home Rule Bill due to the outbreak of the First World War with the Easter Rising is nonsense.Only when that was usurped on the threat of violence from Irish Unionists did the political dial begin to move into the hands of Irish Republicanism and a full independent Ireland, through force if necessary.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?